Mammoths, Pharoahs and 3000BC - any ideas Shark?

[Tonguez]

Watching the Discovery Channel last night - History of Life on Earth it said that mammoth fossils had been found on a small island off the coast of siberia which carbon-dating put at a mere 5000 years old (ie 3000BC)

This was the Bronze age, the same time when the Egyptian Pyramids were being built, the wheel was being invented (in Sumeria) and a number of early civilisations (Egypt. Sumer. Indus Valley) had already established cities.

Can anyone think of any implications of this for a DnD type world? (or even for our own...)

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Can anyone think of any implications of this for a DnD type world? (or even for our own...)

... well, it puts a neat spin on the Halfling Outrider PrC.

 

[Chimera]

BG is about right there. If a small, isolated population survived to be found and exploited, then it really makes a big difference in WHO finds them. Are they mounts or meat?

Then, for that matter, it's pretty obvious that Mammoths were hunted to extinction by Humans. There's nothing to say whether or not that has happened on your world, or indeed if Mammoths ever existed in the first place.

My world is not Earth. It has it's own history and creatures.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, Tonguez, there can potentially be a wide variety of interesting implications. What if human kingdoms in your world domesticated several herds of Mammoths? Or perhaps a tribe of Ogres learned to domesticate a herd of Wooly Rhinoceros'.

What if in your world, the Egyptian Empire, though powerful, is far more expansionistic and less insular than in real history. The Babylonians are another under-used element. Imagine a Babylonian-like empire conquering and enslaving vast areas of your world. Think about farming concepts combined with magic, as well as a variety of technology integrated with magic. The Egyptians were famous as healers. The changes that you make don't even have to be in the area of weaponry. The areas of significant change can be in medicine, magical healing, food storage, as well as crop-improvement. Task-improvers that assist in lumbering, weaving, stone-working, metal-working, and so on--whether it is speed, accuracy, efficiency, even safety--these kinds of technological/industrial/magical/professional changes can provide a very distinctive flavour to your campaign, especially when envisioned with a real-world analogue.

Join some concepts like this, with a historical culture or government form, mix in some human or fantasy-race element, and ask yourself how these factors may play into creating a whole different feel. It's great fun for everyone, and especially entertaining to design as a DM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[I'm A Banana]

Actually, Chimera, there's a LOT of debate about what got rid of Mammoths and other large mammals accross the world. A good case can be made for human overhunting, but a good case can be made that humans were *not* the cause...or not the sole cause, anyway.

A few people say that the big guys couldn't evolve to the warming climate, etc.

I, myself, hold the theory that it wasn't humankind directly hunting them (an overestimation of our early hunting prowess and our own reliance on those large cretures, IMHO), but things that accompanied humankind.

I mean, remember how much damage introduced species did in the colonial period. Rats and snakes and dogs and herd animals exeterminated birds and mammals and grazers alike.

I think that, though humans probably did hunt a few, the major damage was dealt by the other species humans introdcued -- dogs, rats, whatever.

 

[beta-ray]

Hmmn... DnD Tusken Raiders & Banthas!

 

[mmadsen]

A few people say that the big guys couldn't evolve to the warming climate, etc.

I think we have a word for mammoths adapted to a warmer environment: elephants.

 

[mmadsen]

DnD Tusken Raiders & Banthas!

Attack of the Clones, for all its flaws, did remind me how much I love Tusken Raiders and Banthas.

But does anyone else find it strange that desert folk are riding giant furry animals?

 

[MythandLore]

Then, for that matter, it's pretty obvious that Mammoths were hunted to extinction by Humans. There's nothing to say whether or not that has happened on your world, or indeed if Mammoths ever existed in the first place.

Though many other animals like big cats, cave bears and horses were hunted to extinction...

I think that, though humans probably did hunt a few, the major damage was dealt by the other species humans introdcued -- dogs, rats, whatever.

And many animals and diseases we bring with us destroy the things living around us to, these had to be factors yes.
But, it was likely not just one of those two or jut the the heat that killed them, the major reason was likely the changes to where they lived (like weather and people - more likey weather) killed their food.
Not so much a direct killing but an indirect killing, that would explain why the last of them were smaller, just like with the marine iguanas a few years ago, the smaller ones lived becuase they needed less to eat when food couldn't be found.
Like the receding permafrost of today the type of plants that can grow changes, or more the types of plants that are better at growing there take over, and they take over even faster when the original plant is a food source for an animal.
The animal that depends on the orginal plant to live accelerates the death of that plant, and it probably wasn't just one plant.
Imagine how many plants from that time must have died off.

Even in the past few hundred years in the Americas look at how much of the 'prairie' was destroyed, theres only a few miles of the real thing left.
Many of the endangered animals of in the US today are becuase they depended on the prairie.

All over the world right now everything is going extinct because of the changes to were they live.

I think we have a word for mammoths adapted to a warmer environment: elephants.

Not really, the mammoth, Asian elephant, and African elephant originated in Africa. It was only the African elephant that ended up staying and evolving to the animal we know today solely in Africa.
So it was really the other way around.
Interestingly, the Asian elephant is genetically more closely related to the extinct mammoth than to the African elephant.

Watching the Discovery Channel last night - History of Life on Earth it said that mammoth fossils had been found on a small island off the coast of siberia which carbon-dating put at a mere 5000 years old (ie 3000BC)

This was the Bronze age, the same time when the Egyptian Pyramids were being built, the wheel was being invented (in Sumeria) and a number of early civilisations (Egypt. Sumer. Indus Valley) had already established cities.

Can anyone think of any implications of this for a DnD type world? (or even for our own...)

Clearly there WAS little impact, the mammoth went out with a wimper.
But ancient elephants were belived to be domesticated around 4000 years ago in Asia (maybe more), over 2300 years ago Lex the Great had to fight them in India, later the Hannibal even used them to attack Rome.
Seeing as how elephants were around as long as mammoths I don't think they would have had much of an impact even if they lived.

 

[Sodalis]

I agree that attributing thedemise of so many species to earlier man would be pretty presumptuous of their hunting prowess.

True that mastadons, like elephants, were passive animals until threatened, but what can really kill something of that size? not a neanderthal that is barely 4'6". If you are saying that man overhunted these animals, then how do you expalin smilidons (sabre tooth tigers) or the Megalonyx (giant ground sloths)

If i remember correctly, Smilidons are roughly three times as large as the African lion, and the Megalonyx have bony plates under their skin that makes them almost invulnerable.

How did these go extinct? Did Homo eretus kill them? how about H. gracilis? they could not have. If you look at the tool capabilities, there was no way that a 5' homo could take down anything of that size. Instead, there is more proof that humans, like many other predatory animals, were opportunistic scavengers. they would not pass up a carcass, although it is possible that a pach hunting stradegy can be employed to take down small game like deer or horse (eohippus)

I am no anthropologist, and I know that you cannot determine ability through fossils alone, but I dnt think that man could have wiped out entire species of animals of that size...

then again, if A nuclear war broke out tomorrow and killed everyone on earth (fossilizing many) and our remains were found by aliens thousands of years later, would they seriously believe that we single handedly cause the extinction of whole ecosystems? could they beleive that an animal with just a slightly larger brain and opposable thumbs designa nd buuild monuments and technological wonders hat landed us on the moon, walk in space,a nd the deepest depth of the ocean? i wouldnt believe that. iw ould just dismiss it as just another freak of nature.