Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[pming]

Hiya!

Hiya? I think that your understanding of cultural misappropriation may be sorely lacking if you believe that an American fast food chain customizing their menu for Japanese customers somehow debunks the concept. Because, no, that would not be considered cultural misappropriation.

shrug

As I said...tomahto, tomayto.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[pming]

Hiya!

“Tribe” is a nonsense word.

The problem is that the words "tribe" "tribal" "tribalism" are themselves an aspect of the debate over ethnicity. It’s why anthropologists typically use terms like "ethnic group" nowadays. "Tribe" was originally used to translate two Ancient Hebrew words (šēveṭ and maṭṭeh) and its application outside of this context always connotes a value judgment of “archaic” and “less civilization”; where “tribe” has been reclaimed as a self-identifier, it is usually both in translation and in defiance of prevailing power structures.

Culture is not your friend, as Terence McKenna – himself a great appropriator of various shamanic practices – once noted, and I tend to agree. Inasmuch as the maxim points to all culture being an obstacle to realizing our shared humanity. But that’s not what these conversations are ever about. They are more:

Thoughtful Gamer: Hey, why not show some sensitivity to [insert: ethnos, culture, sexuality, gender identity etc.]

Aging Reactionary White Male Cisgendered Heteronormative Anglophone Monoglot Gamer: Wah! But muh hegemony!

I mean, however it’s dressed up, this is the usual argument. An infantile scream at a perceived loss of power.

I really don't see how some CEO of a big company, for example, is going to somehow "loose his position of power in the company" (or even perceived power) because he used the term "ethnic group" in stead of "tribe". Or how a Senator of some state is going to be seen as "more capable and more qualified" to be a Mayor because he uses the term "tribe" in stead of "ethnic group".

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That case not only doesn't exist in 5e, it explicitly says otherwise. First, there are no stats for tribal people. There are only stats for tribal WARRIORS. Second, tribal shamans use the druid stats and have an int of 12, which makes them more intelligent than commoners. We don't have stats for tribal chiefs, hunters, etc.

Is there any other example of warriors having less intelligence than the other humanoids because of them being warriors? If your argument is that it's because they are warriors that they are less intelligent instead of their tribal nature, back that up with evidence.

Gladiators, Knights, Soldiers, Thugs, Veterans, Champions, Warlords, and basically every other generic "warrior" type NPC has higher intelligence than the Tribal Warrior and most of them are more intelligent than commoners. If it's them being "warriors" that makes them less intelligent, it raises the question of why absolutely no one else that is a warrior has lower intelligence.

 

[Maxperson]

Is there any other example of warriors having less intelligence than the other humanoids because of them being warriors? If your argument is that it's because they are warriors that they are less intelligent instead of their tribal nature, back that up with evidence.

Tribal warriors and tribal shamans have two very different intelligence scores. 9 and 12 respectively. That's proof of what I am saying. And it's all I need in order to disprove the claim that the entire tribe is at a 9 Int.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Tribal warriors and tribal shamans have two very different intelligence scores. 9 and 12 respectively. That's proof of what I am saying. And it's all I need in order to disprove the claim that the entire tribe is at a 9 Int.

Or it's proof that shamans/druids have higher intelligence than the average person/warrior. You're jumping to conclusions about the significance of that, IMO.

 

[Maxperson]

Or it's proof that shamans/druids have higher intelligence than the average person/warrior. You're jumping to conclusions about the significance of that, IMO.

Are they tribal? Yes or no? If yes, it's an absolute fact that not all tribesmen have an 8 int. Look at other leaders? They are also smarter. Look at scouts. They're smarter, too. Sort of like hunters would be. You know, like tribal hunters. The claim was that tribal people are all stupid. The basis was that is the tribal WARRIOR stat block. The one jumping to conclusions isn't me. I'm not over generalizing. I'm using hard facts.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Are they tribal? Yes or no? If yes, it's an absolute fact that not all tribesmen have an 8 int. Look at other leaders? They are also smarter. Look at scouts. They're smarter, too. Sort of like hunters would be. You know, like tribal hunters. The claim was that tribal people are all stupid. The basis was that is the tribal WARRIOR stat block. The one jumping to conclusions isn't me. I'm not over generalizing. I'm using hard facts.

No one was saying it was absolute fact that tribesmen have an intelligence of 8. They were saying for the general tribal warrior, it's kind of questionable having them be less intelligent.

Also, the Tribal Shaman is the druid, and aren't limited to only being tribespeople, right? They didn't design the Druid stat as a Tribal Shaman stat, but instead as a Druid stat that can be used for a tribal shaman.

It's jumping to conclusions saying that the tribal warrior is a sign for the general tribal culture as a whole, but it seems much smaller a leap than assuming that it's because of their war-like nature that makes them less intelligent.

 

[Maxperson]

No one was saying it was absolute fact that tribesmen have an intelligence of 8. They were saying for the general tribal warrior, it's kind of questionable having them be less intelligent.

Hussar said quite clearly that tribal PEOPLE had low intelligence. He by no means limited it to warriors only.

Also, the Tribal Shaman is the druid, and aren't limited to only being tribespeople, right? They didn't design the Druid stat as a Tribal Shaman stat, but instead as a Druid stat that can be used for a tribal shaman.

One = the other. If it didn't, then Druid could not be used. So it doesn't matter whether it was designed for Druids and Shamans are equal to Druids, or it was designed for Shamans and Druids are equal to Shamans. It's the same difference.

It's jumping to conclusions saying that the tribal warrior is a sign for the general tribal culture as a whole, but it seems much smaller a leap than assuming that it's because of their war-like nature that makes them less intelligent.

Why? The majority of most tribal peoples were hunters/fishers/farmers, not warriors.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Hussar said quite clearly that tribal PEOPLE had low intelligence. He by no means limited it to warriors only.



One = the other. If it didn't, then Druid could not be used. So it doesn't matter whether it was designed for Druids and Shamans are equal to Druids, or it was designed for Shamans and Druids are equal to Shamans. It's the same difference.


Why? The majority of most tribal peoples were hunters/fishers/farmers, not warriors.

I guess we're not going to come to an agreement with this.

Edit: Sorry, got this mistaken for another thread. @Hussar is still here.

Honest Question: Do you not find it problematic that tribal warriors have less intelligence, and if not, what justification do you have for this?

 

[Maxperson]

I guess we're not going to come to an agreement with this. @Hussar is no longer posting in this thread, so we won't be able to get his input here.

Honest Question: Do you not find it problematic that tribal warriors have less intelligence, and if not, what justification do you have for this?

They probably went with book learning = intelligence, not some bigoted idea that tribal people are stupid. They did something similar to Berserkers. I wouldn't have done that myself, because I don't equate book learning to intelligence. I've met uneducated people that you knew were mentally quick, and I've met college graduates that were so dumb that interacting with them tried my patience.

As for the game, no I don't have a problem with it because 1) I'm absolutely convinced that it was not done for bigoted reasons, and 2) it's a game. I don't equate/link games to real life.