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Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

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Tallifer

Hero
There is no way in hell I can accept that loanwords are a bad thing. English wouldn't even have 1/10 of its vocabulary without loanwords from French, Greek, Latin, Danish, Celtic, Chinese, Korean, German, etc etc ad nauseum. Neither would any other language. Heck, here in Korea, I have heard many times that about 50% of the more literary or technical nouns come from Chinese. And Koreans use all kinds of English loanwords these days (and often alter the original meaning).
 
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Aldarc

Legend
There is no way in hell I cannot accept that loanwords are a bad thing. English wouldn't even have 1/10 of its vocabulary without loanwords from French, Greek, Latin, Danish, Celtic, Chinese, Korean, German, etc etc ad nauseum. Neither would any other language. Heck, here in Korea, I have heard many times that about 50% of the more literary or technical nouns come from Chinese. And Koreans use all kinds of English loanwords these days (and often alter the original meaning).
It would be nice if people could stop arguing against this particular strawman.
 


Aldarc

Legend
Shaman is a loanword, mana is a loanword. Loanwords are normal in every language. Not a straw man: it is my argument.
Okay? But we are not arguing about whether these are loanwords or whether loanwords are bad. The issue is the misapplication and misunderstanding of those terms in how they come into our understanding and how we think about other cultures. The issue pertains to the classism and hierarchies that tinge our use of those loanwords. Are we clearer now? Or would you like another go at tilting at the fake argument that loanwords are bad?
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
What about RQ?
I'd say it's the most important theme of Gloranthan RuneQuest. The game's first two editions were centred on the conflict between the pseudo-Celtic Orlanthi barbarians and the pseudo-Roman Lunar Empire. RQ's sympathies were with the Orlanthis - Greg Stafford considered himself to be a shaman - but it doesn’t present one as Good and the other Evil.

D&D, at its most basic, is a story about the PCs travelling from a settlement into a dungeon. In the settlement equipment can be bought, hirelings recruited, information gathered, spells and hit points regained. Interactions are mostly transactional, non-violent and bounded by law. The dungeon is a place of danger and evil, but also great opportunity. Gaining information, treasure and magic items is achieved by stealth, theft, and violence. The law of the dungeon is like the "law of the jungle" – there is none.

The minimum required to run a game of D&D is, per the 1e DMG "giving them [players/PCs] a brief background, placing them in a settlement, and stating that they should prepare themselves to find and explore the dungeon/ruin they know is nearby." 1e PHB:

When you go on an adventure, you… will go to explore some underground labyrinth or area of land outdoors… Your DM will give you certain information prior to the adventure — you might have to ask questions of the local populace, or you might have heard rumors or know of legends — so your party can properly equip itself for the expedition, hire men-at-arms, and obtain mounts​

In 5e the world is divided between the "civilized" PC races and the "savage and brutal... almost uniformly evil… races of goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears), orcs, gnolls, lizardfolk, and kobolds."

Goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs live in "tribes". Bugbears, INT 8, survive by "raiding and hunting". "[A] goblin king or queen... is nothing more than a glorified goblin boss”. Gnolls, INT 6, are "nomadic". They "attack settlements along the frontiers and borderlands of civilization". "Gnolls rarely build permanent structures or craft anything of lasting value. They don't make weapons or armor, but scavenge such items from the corpses of their fallen victims". Lizardfolk were considered upthread. Orcs, INT 7, are "savage raiders and pillagers" who "seldom settle permanently". Kobolds, INT 8, "worship evil dragons as demigods".

The 5e barbarian provides a counter-narrative.

People of towns and cities take pride in how their civilized ways set them apart from animaIs, as if denying one's own nature was a mark of superiority. To a barbarian, though, civilization is no virtue, but a sign of weakness. The strong embrace their animal nature - keen instincts, primaI physicality, and ferocious rage.​

The association between the tribal barbarian and both "animal nature" and "ferocious rage" can be criticised but the barbarian is portrayed positively, as a defender of their people. "Life in the wild places of the world is fraught with peril: rival tribes, deadly weather, and terrifying monsters. Barbarians charge headlong into that danger so that their people don't have to."

The ranger is different. This class represents not a member of a tribe but someone who lives on the frontier defending civilisation against the "savage" races and other monsters. "Warriors of the wilderness, rangers specialize in hunting the monsters that threaten the edges of civilization… a ranger's true calling is to defend the outskirts of civilization from the ravages of monsters and humanoid hordes that press in from the wild."

The druid’s position is uncertain. Some are priests of societies that still believe in the "Old Faith" but others seem to live as hermits, existing outside society altogether. "Perhaps your character lives in a society where the Old Faith still thrives, or was raised by a druid after being abandoned in the depths of a forest."

A further counter-narrative is provided by the evil urbanised monsters - drow, efreeti, mind flayers, yuan-ti - and the lich, an undead wizard that must be the product of a literate society.

5e’s counter-narrative is imo not strong enough to overcome the default game structure, as presented in 1e, and the default world structure of 5e. Therefore I conclude that D&D’s portrayal of settlements and state societies is largely positive, while its portrayal of tribes, nomads and other non-state societies is mostly negative.

Why the difference between RQ and D&D? RQ derives from the study of religion and history. D&D is based on 20th century adventure fiction.
 
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Okay? But we are not arguing about whether these are loanwords or whether loanwords are bad. The issue is the misapplication and misunderstanding of those terms in how they come into our understanding and how we think about other cultures. The issue pertains to the classism and hierarchies that tinge our use of those loanwords. Are we clearer now? Or would you like another go at tilting at the fake argument that loanwords are bad?

The thing is, so far as I can tell we have no one from the relevant cultures complaining, only self-appointed guardians of language purity.

And how do these self-appointed guardians know how 'we' think about other cultures?

The strawman is the idea that common-usage words in this case are wrongthought.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
For the record, the game doesn’t suggest shamans are less than clerics. Shaman classes are balanced to be equal. If anything the game redressed the balance that these things aren’t seen as equal in the real world.
That is only true in terms of power level, which isn’t remotely what anyone is suggesting the problem is.
The savages have shamans, the good guys have clerics. It’s colonialist and classist, not to mention the misuse of the term in the first place.
Secondly, accusing others of bigotry or racism on thin to no pretext is in fact bigotry itself.
This is absolutely false, on the level of claims of “reverse racism”, if not even more egregiously nonsensical.
so far as I can tell we have no one from the relevant cultures complaining, only self-appointed guardians of language purity.
This issue has been raised quite a bit by people of “the relevant culture”.
Trying to attack people on the basis of...caring about things that affect others more than them...is really weird, though, in addition to being some blatant anti-inclusion rhetoric.
 


dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
self-appointed guardians

It's called civilization, it has rules. A good day is when I don't have 20 notifications from the fb group, and have to wade in deleting posts and banning people. I don't like being forced into being a cop, it's rude. Racism is ugly, and violates the first rule of people being civil to each other.

"People fighting their own battles ..."

This leaves a forum a wasteland ruled by Humongus Amongus like in the Road Warrior. Human nature is to flee, not fight, and people will self select away rather than fight. Society is based around soldiers and police fighting other peoples battles for them.
 


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