Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Hussar]

You can go back through the thread yourself and see the post where someone was advocating using a word processor to replace words.

Yeah. Me.

Not because the words are "taboo" or anything so melodramatic. But, because the words are tied to someone's real life faith and to a very negative portrayal - stupid, backward, evil, violent.

So, as @Doug McCrae says, find and replace seems to be the simplest, most straight forward and easiest solution. This is basic editing, not "censorship".

Now, @Sadras - to be honest, I never noticed the intelligence thing either until this thread started talking about shaman. But, it's all tied together. The primary reason that tribal warriors have a lower intelligence is probably because in D&D, they have ALWAYS had a lower intelligence and I doubt any more thought was given to it. But, the reason tribal warriors in D&D were given lower intelligence is because of the portrayal of tribal warriors in genre fiction. And, that's where the problem lies. It's tied straight back into the whole "lesser people" theme in genre fiction from the very first days.

So, now, we have an opportunity to sever that connection. Tribal warriors are just as intelligent as anyone else and everyone in D&D land who worships a sort of nature based faith of some sort has druids. And druids can be found pretty much everywhere, no negative connotation connected.

Like I said, this just seems so self evident and simple to me. I am frankly baffled where the resistance is coming from.

 

[TheSword]

Yeah. Me.

Not because the words are "taboo" or anything so melodramatic. But, because the words are tied to someone's real life faith and to a very negative portrayal - stupid, backward, evil, violent.

So, as @Doug McCrae says, find and replace seems to be the simplest, most straight forward and easiest solution. This is basic editing, not "censorship".

Now, @Sadras - to be honest, I never noticed the intelligence thing either until this thread started talking about shaman. But, it's all tied together. The primary reason that tribal warriors have a lower intelligence is probably because in D&D, they have ALWAYS had a lower intelligence and I doubt any more thought was given to it. But, the reason tribal warriors in D&D were given lower intelligence is because of the portrayal of tribal warriors in genre fiction. And, that's where the problem lies. It's tied straight back into the whole "lesser people" theme in genre fiction from the very first days.

So, now, we have an opportunity to sever that connection. Tribal warriors are just as intelligent as anyone else and everyone in D&D land who worships a sort of nature based faith of some sort has druids. And druids can be found pretty much everywhere, no negative connotation connected.

Like I said, this just seems so self evident and simple to me. I am frankly baffled where the resistance is coming from.

Please don’t equate the two issues. One is self evident and easy - ability score changes.

Self-censorship as a result of fear of retaliation is still censorship. However even then sometimes self-censorship is worthwhile. There are a fair number of words that we would consider off limits. Please just don’t think shaman, or mana has reached that level.

No removing all references to real peoples is almost impossible and definitely the nuclear option. Weeding out what has been influenced and what hasn’t is not at all simple and probably Not effective. Not to mention the collateral damage to lots of concepts that don’t cause any offense at all.

 

[Hussar]

Removing references to real world is the nuclear option. Shutting down lots of interesting history.

Option 2 is sensible, measured and long overdue.

What interesting history? Shaman is referred to SEVEN TIMES in the Monster Manual and NO WHERE ELSE. There is no "interesting history" here. It's lazy writing to mean "druid for primitives." What history? What references?

Look, if we wanted to pull druid from the game, sure, I'd understand. But, I'll bet dollars to donuts that before this thread, you didn't even know that the word shaman even appeared in the Monster Manual. There's no long standing tradition here. There's no history.

Now, if you want to have a shaman tradition added to the game, FANTASTIC. I'd be very interested. But, let's get it out of the negative meaning that it's in right now and THEN you can write your shaman class and tradition to your heart's content.

"Nuclear option". Holy crap. Melodrama much?

 

[TheSword]

What interesting history? Shaman is referred to SEVEN TIMES in the Monster Manual and NO WHERE ELSE. There is no "interesting history" here. It's lazy writing to mean "druid for primitives." What history? What references?

Look, if we wanted to pull druid from the game, sure, I'd understand. But, I'll bet dollars to donuts that before this thread, you didn't even know that the word shaman even appeared in the Monster Manual. There's no long standing tradition here. There's no history.

Now, if you want to have a shaman tradition added to the game, FANTASTIC. I'd be very interested. But, let's get it out of the negative meaning that it's in right now and THEN you can write your shaman class and tradition to your heart's content.

"Nuclear option". Holy crap. Melodrama much?

Well my experience isn’t limited to d&d. Pathfinder and other spin offs has had these concepts for a long time, not to mention earlier editions.

The law of unintended consequences applies.

The simple statement of expecting the removal references to real world peoples is a nuclear option. Not this single case of it.

 

[Olrox17]

What interesting history? Shaman is referred to SEVEN TIMES in the Monster Manual and NO WHERE ELSE. There is no "interesting history" here. It's lazy writing to mean "druid for primitives." What history? What references?

Look, if we wanted to pull druid from the game, sure, I'd understand. But, I'll bet dollars to donuts that before this thread, you didn't even know that the word shaman even appeared in the Monster Manual. There's no long standing tradition here. There's no history.

Now, if you want to have a shaman tradition added to the game, FANTASTIC. I'd be very interested. But, let's get it out of the negative meaning that it's in right now and THEN you can write your shaman class and tradition to your heart's content.

"Nuclear option". Holy crap. Melodrama much?

Well, shaman used to be a class both in 3e and in 4e, so there is a history in the game. It's not a class or a subclass in 5e yet, but that could change in the future.

 

[TheSword]

There is also a vast wealth of historical references in the game overall. Sometimes overt, sometimes oblique. If we have to stop using historical references to any people in the real world then we are missing out.

 

[Sadras]

Now, @Sadras - to be honest, I never noticed the intelligence thing either until this thread started talking about shaman. But, it's all tied together. The primary reason that tribal warriors have a lower intelligence is probably because in D&D, they have ALWAYS had a lower intelligence and I doubt any more thought was given to it. But, the reason tribal warriors in D&D were given lower intelligence is because of the portrayal of tribal warriors in genre fiction. And, that's where the problem lies. It's tied straight back into the whole "lesser people" theme in genre fiction from the very first days.

So, now, we have an opportunity to sever that connection. Tribal warriors are just as intelligent as anyone else and everyone in D&D land who worships a sort of nature based faith of some sort has druids. And druids can be found pretty much everywhere, no negative connotation connected.

Like I said, this just seems so self evident and simple to me. I am frankly baffled where the resistance is coming from.

I have no issue with the INT boost. It is definitely not a hill I want to die on.
I remember a Forgotten Realms book I read years ago - these knights got off their horses and the writer was portraying the PoV from the scout ("Aztec or Inca like-culture") that was watching them and he, the author through the character, described it as one large beast being separated into two, the shiny part (armoured knight) split from the large 4-legged beast. I thought that was genius at the time as I had not encountered something like that before in my reading and I remember my initial read left me confused until I realised this was the scout's PoV seeing something unfamiliar. I have always likened that limited knowledge as the reason for the low INT in tribesmen.

EDIT: It was the Maztica Trilogy by Douglas Niles

The word Shaman is very evocative for me, and instead of advocating for its removal or even replacement, I'd rather include it in some good and neutral ethnic groups or better yet make it a class as I mentioned earlier in the thread. That is my position.

 

[Hussar]

You all do realize that you can do both right?

Remove it now, and, later on, when it's a class with history and all that good stuff, add it back in.

Isn't that the best of both worlds?

 

[Sadras]

You all do realize that you can do both right?
Remove it now, and, later on, when it's a class with history and all that good stuff, add it back in.
Isn't that the best of both worlds?

This seems an unnecessary process. How would you even remove it? By updating the errata page?
Why not just include the Shaman class in the next book (along with the Psionic class) without the removal?

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, @Maxperson is technically right. It's Tribal "Warrior" that is less intelligent. THAN EVERYONE. But, hey, that's okay. We're allowed to say that tribal peo... err... warriors are less intelligent right? Because, that's not racist at all.

Er... "TRIBAL WARRIOR Medium humanoid (any race), any alignment."

Who is it racist against? last I checked, tribe isn't a race.

If WotC had been smart, they would have quietly made these changes and no one would have even noticed other than the people who are being insulted by the current state of things. Unfortunately now we have to wade through endless pages of crap and hyperbole to make, what is at the end of the day, a couple of minor edits that the same people who are bitching about the changes, wouldn't even notice if we hadn't pointed it out.

People would have noticed and been even more upset.