Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

They probably went with book learning = intelligence, not some bigoted idea that tribal people are stupid. They did something similar to Berserkers. I wouldn't have done that myself, because I don't equate book learning to intelligence. I've met uneducated people that you knew were mentally quick, and I've met college graduates that were so dumb that interacting with them tried my patience.

I get that. I also get that it probably wasn't done as a conscious "let's make tribal people stupid" and was probably more of an automatic placement based on whomever designed it. If they did it as a "book learning = intelligence" then they went against their own definition of intelligence from the PHB, but we have no real way of knowing the purpose of this intelligence placement. I just feel there's no need for a penalty to intelligence.

As for the game, no I don't have a problem with it because 1) I'm absolutely convinced that it was not done for bigoted reasons, and 2) it's a game. I don't equate/link games to real life.

I understand that, and there's no real need to discuss those two points further, as we're in agreement for the first point, and the second can't be changed by discussing on an online forum.

 

[TheSword]

Interesting video about the origins of mana. Etymology can be fascinating, particularly where use has changed over time. I don’t think it’s calling for removal, just calling out an interesting derivation that has come to mean something else.

The solution of course is not to pretend the words don’t exist, or remove and replace them. This isn’t necessary and doesn’t make the world a better place.

Instead learn the history to avoid insults through lack of understanding or pay someone who knows it. Then move on. There is no need to wring your hands and delve into a pit of angst, on one side of the other.

I think the sad thing is this debate (it is all one debate) has extremes on both sides, whether that be the ‘taking muh orcs’ fellas or the ‘find and replace function’ fellas. The battle lines pretty much draw up the same five or six people on each side and endless grind of this topic continues.

It was interesting at first, now it’s come to dominate the boards. It’s starting to get tiresome.

 

[Hussar]

Umm, I'm still here.

Yes, @Maxperson is technically right. It's Tribal "Warrior" that is less intelligent. THAN EVERYONE. But, hey, that's okay. We're allowed to say that tribal peo... err... warriors are less intelligent right? Because, that's not racist at all.

This is really the hill people want to die on?

Seriously, changing Int to 10 would break people's games? See, @TheSword, I fundamentally disagree with you. One one side you have people who will block any and all changes, without question and without any analysis. No matter what, nothing can ever be changed. On my side of the fence, I want to change about 7 words in the Monster Manual to remove Shaman and replace it with druid and change a couple of stats from 8 to 10.

OMG, Hussar has lost his mind!!! The game will never be the same!!! It will no longer be recognizable!?!?! It's not D&D anymore if Tribal Warriors have the same Int score as everyone else!?!!?!!!

You're right in that these discussions have become tedious and tiresome. And unbelievably frustrating.

If WotC had been smart, they would have quietly made these changes and no one would have even noticed other than the people who are being insulted by the current state of things. Unfortunately now we have to wade through endless pages of crap and hyperbole to make, what is at the end of the day, a couple of minor edits that the same people who are bitching about the changes, wouldn't even notice if we hadn't pointed it out.

 

[Aldarc]

Interesting video about the origins of mana. Etymology can be fascinating, particularly where use has changed over time. I don’t think it’s calling for removal, just calling out an interesting derivation that has come to mean something else.

The solution of course is not to pretend the words don’t exist, or remove and replace them. This isn’t necessary and doesn’t make the world a better place.

Instead learn the history to avoid insults through lack of understanding or pay someone who knows it. Then move on. There is no need to wring your hands and delve into a pit of angst, on one side of the other.

I think the sad thing is this debate (it is all one debate) has extremes on both sides, whether that be the ‘taking muh orcs’ fellas or the ‘find and replace function’ fellas. The battle lines pretty much draw up the same five or six people on each side and endless grind of this topic continues.

It was interesting at first, now it’s come to dominate the boards. It’s starting to get tiresome.

I don't think that I am either, but knowing this would require from people the onerous task of actually reading my OP.

 

[TheSword]

I don't think that I am either, but knowing this would require from people the onerous task of actually reading my OP.

I didn’t mention anyone specifically, however at least one person in this thread suggested using the find and replace function on the word processor.
The idea that certain words are taboo is serious and should only be done in serious cases.

There are some words that need excising because of persistent abuse linked to systemic real word hurt that has effected millions of people. Let’s not cheapen the real and important actions by claiming Druid or Mana is in the same league.

Learn from history, remember origins, don’t be grotesquely provocative or offensive. Other than that, let’s not tie ourselves up in knots.

 

[Olrox17]

Umm, I'm still here.

Yes, @Maxperson is technically right. It's Tribal "Warrior" that is less intelligent. THAN EVERYONE. But, hey, that's okay. We're allowed to say that tribal peo... err... warriors are less intelligent right? Because, that's not racist at all.

This is really the hill people want to die on?

Seriously, changing Int to 10 would break people's games? See, @TheSword, I fundamentally disagree with you. One one side you have people who will block any and all changes, without question and without any analysis. No matter what, nothing can ever be changed. On my side of the fence, I want to change about 7 words in the Monster Manual to remove Shaman and replace it with druid and change a couple of stats from 8 to 10.

OMG, Hussar has lost his mind!!! The game will never be the same!!! It will no longer be recognizable!?!?! It's not D&D anymore if Tribal Warriors have the same Int score as everyone else!?!!?!!!

You're right in that these discussions have become tedious and tiresome. And unbelievably frustrating.

If WotC had been smart, they would have quietly made these changes and no one would have even noticed other than the people who are being insulted by the current state of things. Unfortunately now we have to wade through endless pages of crap and hyperbole to make, what is at the end of the day, a couple of minor edits that the same people who are bitching about the changes, wouldn't even notice if we hadn't pointed it out.

I, for one, never even noticed that tribal warriors had less than average Int. Am I against raising their Int to 10? Nah, go ahead.
It's not like anyone is ever going to waste a 2nd level slots to cast Phantasmal Force on these chumps!

 

[TheSword]

Umm, I'm still here.

Yes, @Maxperson is technically right. It's Tribal "Warrior" that is less intelligent. THAN EVERYONE. But, hey, that's okay. We're allowed to say that tribal peo... err... warriors are less intelligent right? Because, that's not racist at all.

This is really the hill people want to die on?

Seriously, changing Int to 10 would break people's games? See, @TheSword, I fundamentally disagree with you. One one side you have people who will block any and all changes, without question and without any analysis. No matter what, nothing can ever be changed. On my side of the fence, I want to change about 7 words in the Monster Manual to remove Shaman and replace it with druid and change a couple of stats from 8 to 10.

OMG, Hussar has lost his mind!!! The game will never be the same!!! It will no longer be recognizable!?!?! It's not D&D anymore if Tribal Warriors have the same Int score as everyone else!?!!?!!!

You're right in that these discussions have become tedious and tiresome. And unbelievably frustrating.

If WotC had been smart, they would have quietly made these changes and no one would have even noticed other than the people who are being insulted by the current state of things. Unfortunately now we have to wade through endless pages of crap and hyperbole to make, what is at the end of the day, a couple of minor edits that the same people who are bitching about the changes, wouldn't even notice if we hadn't pointed it out.

I’m not sure whether anyone cares if tribal warriors get their Int raised to 10. It has no impact on the game. I take Int in D&D to be more about processing knowledge but I don’t think it has ever been well established and I’m sure there are lots of grey areas. Who cares.

Stating that some language is unacceptable and Shouldn’t be printed is not a small thing. Where it happens now it’s because of serious and widespread hurt, not a tenuous etymology or a result of logic. You need to demonstrate harm, not just imaginary harm, but actual harm. As has been done with racial slurs against POC and stereotypes towards Roma. They experience daily racism because of these attitudes. You haven’t demonstrated that the current us of the word shaman has any impact on existing Shaman. Neither is it used as a racial slur.

Yes there are people who want to block all changes. I am not one of those people. I’m happy with a lot of the changes they make sense. However there is a bar to meet to justify making them. I just don’t think you have.

Claiming the change is minor is irrelevant when you are insisting on it happening. You’re also assuming that WOC agree with you that words like shaman are somehow wrong and should be stopped. You just haven’t made a convincing case, imho. You have a historian l explaining the history of mana in video games and have filled the gaps to say it’s cultural misappropriation, rather than just good old cultural appropriation.

 

[Hussar]

I didn’t mention anyone specifically, however at least one person in this thread suggested using the find and replace function on the word processor.
The idea that certain words are taboo is serious and should only be done in serious cases.

There are some words that need excising because of persistent abuse linked to systemic real word hurt that has effected millions of people. Let’s not cheapen the real and important actions by claiming Druid or Mana is in the same league.

Learn from history, remember origins, don’t be grotesquely provocative or offensive. Other than that, let’s not tie ourselves up in knots.

Again, raises hand.

Umm, I put forward that solution as the simplest one. "Taboo" is your invention.

Tying real world religious practices ONLY to evil, violent, technologically backward monsters is a bad idea. Either broaden the use of the word, or use another word whose meaning is already broadened, like "druid" instead of "shaman". It would require replacing a grand total of SEVEN words in the monster manual, would actually reflect the fact that mechanically, shaman in 5e D&D ARE druids, and would reduce confusion. After all, if I want to have a lizard folk religious leader, the books tell me that I need a shaman. Unless I actually read the druid entry, I have no idea what a 5e shaman is. This is not referenced in an index or anywhere else in the book.

It's not about cheapening anything. It's a simple problem. It has a very simple solution. Why we have to drag this out over hundreds of posts is certainly beyond me.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I, for one, never even noticed that tribal warriors had less than average Int. Am I against raising their Int to 10? Nah, go ahead.
It's not like anyone is ever going to waste a 2nd level slots to cast Phantasmal Force on these chumps!

Many said that people discriminated against by the stereotype will usually notice it much easily. You're Italian, from what I've read in the thread, so you're not usually associated with tribe, unlike Germans ("germanic tribe" being the first idea that comes to my mind when thinking of the word) Frankish or Belgian (the bravest of the Gauls!). You'd probably notice it more if you were.

 

[Hussar]

Stating that some language is unacceptable and Shouldn’t be printed is not a small thing

Please, can you quote anyone actually stating this? Or is this just yet another red herring bugaboo that folks need to invent in order to have something to argue against?