D&D 5E Maneuvers discussion

Blackbrrd

First Post
Cleave: does it do [E]+bonuses damage or just [E]? Whirlwind attack explicitly says it doesn't add the bonus damage, while Cleave just says it swaps the [W] dice for the [E] dice on the damage roll. Normally a damage roll includes bonuses.

Composed Attack: interesting way of handling disadvantage - might be useful with two-weapon fighting?

Controlled fall: why would you take this? How often do you expect your character to fall great distances? Very weak in my opinion.

Danger sense: might be useful to go first, but it does feel a bit weak.

Deadly strike: the fighters bread-and-butter maneuver, looking very good.

Defensive roll: Evasion light, looks pretty useful.

Glancing blow: looks very good in my opinion, doing damage on a miss.

Great fortitude: ok, adding expertise to str or con saving throw.

Iron will: very good, adding expertise to cha or wis saving throw.

Lightning reflexes: same as above but for dex save. I would rather take Defensive roll.

Mighty exertion: expertise dice to str check? Not really that useful in my opinion.

Opportunist: kind of meh since it probably doesn't happen too often and reduces your damage potential.

Parry: expertise roll to reduce damage? Awesome!

Precise shot: reducing cover penalties? Pretty useful for an archer.

Protect: reduce damage to an ally? Awesome!

Skill mastery: damn, this is good!

Sneak attack looks like an inferior version of Deadly Strike. It's still very good. I don't like it though and I think it needs a revamp.

Spring attack
: looks a bit meh. How often do you want to disengage?

Tumbling dodge: nice getaway move

Vault: lets you jump further and higher. Great if you are in the olympics. I would pass on this one.

Volley: deadly strike with damage divided over multiple enemies. A bit meh. I would rather have a high risk high reward maneuver, risking E-dice for potentially higher damage.

Whirlwind looks like Deadly Strike, but divides the damage among multiple enemies. A bit meh. See comment on Volley.

What I like about the assorted maneuvers is that it looks like you can combine multiple ones in the same round. For instance, you use one dice to parry, the use deadly strike with another dice to take a mob down and then you use your last dice to cleave an additonal mob. I like the flexible and dynamic way these can be used.
 

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kerleth

Explorer
Yeah, that seems to be the general idea. I love the maneuver concept myself. I hope if they are going to do it for multiple classes, that they do more than just give them different maneuver lists though. Also, I wish they would tweak the fighter some. Like so
1st level-1d4 Expertise, Fighting Style
2nd level- New Manuever
3rd level- 2d4 Expertise
4th level- New Manuever
5th level- 2d6 Expertise
And so on.....
That way you get something at every level. Also, getting a second die at lower levels would potentially let you start splitting your dice to perform cool combo stunts sooner. Also, increasing the die type has a bigger impact when there are multiple dice, so I would prefer that to wait till the second die.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I would like them to apply the whirlwind attack's language to other manuevers that do extra attacks.

For example, cleave requires a second attack which I feel is a little clunky, where whirlwind attack simply uses the original attack roll. I think that cleans up the mechanic and doesn't present any additional power.

Precise Shot: It should simply read: Spend a single expertise die to negate cover. Its way too fiddly right now and its simply unnecessary, cover doesn't come up THAT often, and since I'm picking a precious maneuver for it, I say just let it work.
 

Blackbrrd

First Post
Regarding Cleave, what's your interpretation of Cleave damage? To me it looks like it does [E] +bonus damage, while Whirlwind attack just does [E] damage. It might be why Cleave requires additional attack rolls.
 

B.T.

First Post
Anything that grants a bonus to attacks, saving throws, or skill check is annoying to me. We're supposed to have "bounded accuracy," and yet characters are adding up to +10 to these things? Idiocy. I'd say that those abilities need to be changed so that you add half of the expertise die to your roll.
 

Warbringer

Explorer
Anything that grants a bonus to attacks, saving throws, or skill check is annoying to me. We're supposed to have "bounded accuracy," and yet characters are adding up to +10 to these things? Idiocy. I'd say that those abilities need to be changed so that you add half of the expertise die to your roll.

...that would be math, and 5e mantra is "math bad"

That said, you're bang on. The designers need to understand that to preserve bounded accuracy you need to stop giving bonuses with really high swing.

Personally, i'd rather the die type was fixed, but grew in number. This means that average and top damage can be scaled as today, but players have more options...

1'd rather have 5d6 (30, 17.5) than 3d10 (30,17.5) ...

then ... spend an epxertise dice for a '+1' bonus ...

Hell, do this an let fighters have d8s, rougues have d4s, change the progression so rougues have "more" dice than fighters, but fighters bigger damage potential and overall it changes the feel.

Re Clerics ... who said WOTC can use "Warbringer" as a deity !!! :)
 

Nine Hands

Explorer
...that would be math, and 5e mantra is "math bad"

That said, you're bang on. The designers need to understand that to preserve bounded accuracy you need to stop giving bonuses with really high swing.

Personally, i'd rather the die type was fixed, but grew in number. This means that average and top damage can be scaled as today, but players have more options...

1'd rather have 5d6 (30, 17.5) than 3d10 (30,17.5) ...

then ... spend an epxertise dice for a '+1' bonus ...

Hell, do this an let fighters have d8s, rougues have d4s, change the progression so rougues have "more" dice than fighters, but fighters bigger damage potential and overall it changes the feel.

Re Clerics ... who said WOTC can use "Warbringer" as a deity !!! :)

Personally I think Rogues should have d6s only because then you could use the sneak attack progression, just changing it to different uses.
 

Howndawg

Explorer
Mighty exertion: expertise dice to str check? Not really that useful in my opinion.

Actually, this is one of my favorites. It gives the fighter something to do outside of combat. Think of the great stuff Steve Reeves did in all those Italian sword and sandals movies.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
I am a fan of the maneuvers that add to checks. They give you a bonus above bounded accuracy, so you actually get better at checks at higher levels (your checks get better, but the ACs don't). Same for the ones that add to saving throws. It's all very pleasingly old-school.

Here's some math for a Rogue with a 17 Dex:

Level 1 skill check: 1d20 + 1d4 + 6
Level 10 skill check (unimproved skill): 1d20 + [highest 1 of 3d10] + 7
Level 10 skill check (primary skill): 1d20 + [highest 1 of 3d10] + 11

Level 1 average: 19
Level 10 average: 25.5
Level 10 average at max improvement: 29.5

Chance to unlock a hard (DC 16) lock:

Level 1: 67.5%
Level 10: 96.08%

Compared to an OSRIC Thief:

Level 1: 30%
Level 10: 66%

Compared to Packet 2's rogue:

Level 1: 100%
Level 10: 100%
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
Actually, this is one of my favorites. It gives the fighter something to do outside of combat. Think of the great stuff Steve Reeves did in all those Italian sword and sandals movies.

Good call. I think it should work for Con checks too.

Vault should go bye-bye because jumping should be a strength-based skill check, meaning this should be another use for Mighty Exertion.

From the wording, it definitely looks to me like you add modifier damage with Cleave, which is funny because it means that at high levels you'll be doing more damage with your cleave than your main attack. But it's necessary, because otherwise Cleave is just a crappy version of Whirlwind Attack. Personally, I think I'd pick Whirlwind Attack over Cleave anyway.

There are already big threads on Sneak Attack vs. Deadly Strike, but like Nine Hands said I'd like to see Rogues gets 1d6 per level (or even 1d6 per 2 levels). They'd have to lose access to Parry, but they shouldn't get Parry anyway.

Rogues get only five maneuvers that fighters don't: Sneak Attack, Skill Mastery, Iron Will (for some reason), Controlled Fall, and Defensive Roll (evasion lite). They share nine others with fighters. A lot of people are suggesting it's okay that both fighters and rogues use maneuvers now because clerics and wizards both use spells and look how different they are! But I'm pretty sure if two thirds of the cleric's spell list was from the wizard list, that would be seen as a problem. At this point, the rogue is basically a specialist fighter: he gets one cool maneuver (Skill Mastery) and four extra skills but gives up weapon and armor proficiencies and hp.
 

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