Marionnen's Musings: Skill Packages

[airwalkrr]

Much thanks to [MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] for his suggestion for this topic. I found it most intriguing and instantly wanted to expand upon the idea of Skill Packages.

I received some interesting feedback from my last post on Skills at EN World. Another poster suggested skill packages, a set of skills that are somehow associated with each other, or follow a common theme. Each class gets to choose from a set of skill packages rather than choosing skills piecemeal as the current D&D 3.5 rules do. I thought about this for a moment and instantly loved it. After all, I think the 3.5 rules do a very good job of enumerating upon skills. My main problem is that they are often so complicated that it takes a good long while to pick which skills to invest in and how much to invest. It would be nice if players could pick a concept that lets them be good at what the concept implies without having to necessarily worry about the details of each and every skill point. While the Maximum Ranks, Limited Choices goes part of the way to solving this issue, it still leaves a lot of choices for a player, and still allows for things like synergy and other complicated cross-class issues. So I hit upon this idea and came up with a list of some sample skill packages of three skills each a player character might choose.

Again, let me emphasize this system does away with the whole notion of class skills and cross-class skills and lets players choose any skill package they want. The number of skill packages a player can choose would be limited in the same manner as previously described in my last post on the subject, that is, a player would receive half as many skill packages as he could normally receive in skill points per level in the core rules. Note that this system actually results in players getting more skills and potentially more skill points (if you were to reverse engineer the rule) by not being limited by class skills. I think with this system we could re-introduce the bonus for having a high a high Intelligence. For each point of Intelligence modifier, you may select one additional skill package. Instead of the synergy rule, a +2 synergy bonus would be granted if a single skill appears in two or more of your skill packages, but this bonus can only be granted once. A guiding principle in this system would also be that no two skill packages should have more than one skill in common.

So here are a few examples. It is not an exhaustive list, just a sampling. Take a look and tell me what you think.

Academic: Architecture and Engineering, Geography, History
Acrobat: Balance, Jump, Tumble
Arcanist: Concentration, Arcana, Spellcraft
Ascetic: Concentration, History, Religion
Athlete: Climb, Jump, Swim
Burglar: Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand
Caretaker: Handle Animal, Heal, Nature
Con Artist: Bluff, Disguise, Forgery
Dilettante: Local, Nobility and Royalty, Perform
Interrogator: Bluff, Intimidate, Use Rope
Naturalist: Geography, Nature, Survival
Negotiator: Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive
Noble: Diplomacy, History, Nobility and Royalty
Purveyor: Appraise, Gather Information, Local
Scout: Listen, Spot, Survival
Spelunker: Climb, Dungeoneering, Use Rope
Teamster: Handle Animal, Ride, Survival
Trapper: Disable Device, Open Lock, Search

 

[Greenfield]

I would still allow individual skills to be purchased, as per the current rules. This is simply a way to discount a block, to make classes like the Fighter less marginalized. Specialty focused builds should still be possible and available.

All this does is replace the Synergy bonus mechanic that's currently in place.

Also, I'd pad each package out to s a set number of skills, say 5, so all packages end up with the same base cost and the same "value" received. Some of the skills might be fluff, the sort of effluvia you pick up while learning something else.

A Hunter package would probably include Knowledge Nature, Survival, Hide, Spot and Search.

 

[airwalkrr]

I considered 5, but ultimately it becomes difficult to control overlap in the long run.

The core rules for skills are right out. I've never been happy with them or their minutiae. All characters in a campaign with this rule would use skill packages in lieu of skill points. You still get considerably more value with three skills in exchange for two, especially when you consider cross class skills are no longer possible. Finally, I'd prefer to start small and expand of necessary. Giving players more skills in their packages is easier later down the line than taking some away if I decide they have too man skills available to them. A rogue without any overlap and no int bonus or human bonus would have 20 skills if packages included 5 skills each. That's a bit much.

 

[Greenfield]

Hmm. My vision on them was a simple replacement for synergy bonuses, and perhaps a way for lower-skilled classes to bulk up a bit in this area.

One problem with the idea of using these exclusively is the character who, by way of class choice and INT, gets only one point per level. By the rules you can't "save them up", and if packages cost two points then they can never gain skills.

My version still had cross-class penalties, but didn't worry if there were overlaps. Some skills, like Survival, could easily fit in several professional categories without a problem.

High-value skills like Spot and Listen would probably appear in fewer packages (i.e. smaller overlap) because they're cross class for so many.

These would also make it easy to "skill up" NPCs if you prepare some decent professional packages.

That brings up another aspect: Profession. It's a skill that doesn't seem to do much. It gives you a way to make a living at something, but doesn't actually give you any functional ability in that trade.

By making these "Profession Packages" you could give some actual function to that otherwise empty label.

Just a thought.

 

[nijineko]

i've always allowed profession, craft, knowledge, and perform skills to perform "narrow" overlaps into other skills even if they don't have ranks.

for example: professionals and craftsmen know how to appraise stuff specific to their field. so i allow them to use it to cover appraise if it relates to a field.

herbalists know how to heal, so they can use prof:herbalist to cover heal, as long as they have herbs and a healing toolkit on hand they can use.

and so forth.

 

[Greenfield]

Several of those are already defined as synergy bonuses. Craft and Appraise, for example.

My character has points in Profession - Astrologer. It's a prerequisite for a PRC (Sublime Chord), but by the book it has no other function. Oh, he can earn money as an Astrologer, but can't actually tell fortunes, plot horoscopes, or use the skill to actually do anything specific.

A professional armorer or blacksmith can make a living at it, even if he has no actual ability to make armor or work iron. At the same time someone could be a master smith, in terms of craft skills, but be completely incapable of earning any money at it.

So when I was thinking of skill packages, I was looking at packages that might include specific craft skills with Profession attached as part of the deal.
Healer, as a professional package, might include Healing, Herbalist, Knowledge Nature, perhaps Craft: Alchemy and, of course, Profession: Healer.

You could have standard packages for Wilderness Adventurer that would include Survival, Knowledge Nature, Knowledge Dungeoneering, Ride and possibly Spot or Search.

Yeah, in any of these there are one or two that are clinkers, skills of little use. But if you're paying three to get five, the five you get can be sub-optimal and still be a good deal. In fact, I think they specifically *should* be sub-optimal, since they're not supposed to be skill focused, but more a reflection of the skills that tend to be associated with the profession, or the environment the package is designed around.

That leads to one of their obvious uses: Quick-building functional NPCs.

So of course the local smith knows how to work iron. He also knows how to buy, sell and appraise both raw materials and finished goods made of iron. He might even have a bit of Handle Animal in there, since shoeing horses requires that you know how to approach and work with them without getting your head kicked.

A professional sailor will know something of Craft: Carpentry (used for boat repair), Knowledge Nature or Survival to judge weather, Use Rope, Climb (for rigging) and of course Profession: Sailor.
A professional Navigator might have a similar package, but his will probably replace Craft Carpentry with Knowledge Geography, and his Profession will be different. And he may end up climbing the rigging to sight landmarks. Sub-optimal for the purpose of pure Navigation, but necessary for life aboard ship.

Now few if any of these I'm describing will be laser-focused for PC types, and that's okay. They're still a reasonable way for characters to flesh out a background without having to spend too many of those precious starting skill points on it.

And if we can replace Synergy bonuses with appropriate package deals we can simplify mechanics and deprive certain min-maxers of ways to hide their true capacity from unsuspecting DMs. (I have no problems with capable PCs, but it bothers me when someone decides to surprise (read "ambush") me with some unexpectedly intense ability focus.)



Why does a Navigator need to know his sailor's knots you ask? He doesn't, but he's likely to pick up the skill through simple exposure.

 

[airwalkrr]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION], if you have time, I would love to see you come up with a list of ten or so skill packages that you think would make sense. I like you idea a lot. I think perhaps some synergy of your idea and mine would provide a good set-up for what I am looking for.

 

[Greenfield]

Sure. The ones I've tossed out so far have been off the top of my head. I'll see if I can come up with some solid examples for both PC and NPC professions.

 

[airwalkrr]

That would be most appreciated. I think you have some good ideas in this matter.

 

[Greenfield]

Well, let's put our heads together to see what should be in the list:

I've already suggested things like Huntsman/trapper. (Or was that you? )

Blacksmith, Innkeeper, City Guard, Nobleman, Apothacary, Mage Guild member, and Village Cleric come to mind immediately.

Some packages for Street Thief and Thieve's Guild member come to mind as well, as do Farmer and Herdsman.

For PC packages, let's think of a couple of options for each of the core classes:

Fighter should have : Ride, Climb, Jump, and Handle Animal to be sure. Not sure about number 5. Dungeoneering perhaps?
Wizard should have: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, a Craft skill of their choice (Alchemy perhaps), and again not sure what fluff skill to make #5 . As a variant, drop the Craft and the fluff skill and include an extra-planar language.
Cleric should have : Concentration, Knowledge Religion, Diplomacy (for addressing the congregation), Healing and a fluff skill.
Sorcerer might match Wizard, it might not. Perhaps Diplomacy instead of the Craft or Knowledge skill.
Ranger should have: Knowledge Nature, Spot, Listen, Survival, and one of the Stealth skills (Hide or Move Silent). A variant would include Handle Animal and Healer in place of Knowledge Nature and the Survival skill.
Rogue should have: Search, Disable Device, Spot, Hide and Move Silent.
Or... Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Appraise, Spot and Listen.
Or... Diplomacy, Bluff, Hide, Move Silent and Listen.
Or... you get the picture...

Obviously there are a lot of builds for many of the classes, Rogue and Bard in particular. We should try to be creative with the skill point-challenged (coughFighercough, coughPaladincough) and give them several options.

Now I'm seeing these as costing 3 points for 5 skills. We should also consider some smaller packages, some with three skills that only cost two points. That's for the Half-Orc Fighter with the 10 Intelligence.

The Half Orc with the 9 Int? He's buying his skills one at a time, and that's just the price of being a distinctly unskilled build.

Just remember that there's no inherent limit on the number of package levels a character can buy at one time, if they have the points.