Marketing criticisms miss the point

[Hussar]

I mean the encounter system I used without issue for 8 years. When they said that it doesn't work, that flat-out did not match my experience with the system - I knew it worked because I'd been using it.

If they'd said it "could be better" or "needs work", then that would be been another thing entirely.

Come on. I've been a staunch defender of the EL/CR system too, but, even I realize that it's far more voodoo than science. There are just far too many things that can throw CR/EL out of whack. As an experienced player, I can adjust for that. As a new DM, I was having all sorts of problems.

Surely I can't be the only one who remembers pretty much weekly threads bemoaning the failure of the 3e encounter design system.

 

[LeaderDesslok]

I didn't read through all 10 pages of this thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone's thoughts...

I think that part of the problem I have with the marketing was that Wizards seemed to be saying (in some but not all instances) "You know how we said 3rd edition was awesome and fanatastic? Well actually it was a bit broken, so we fixed it with 3.5. But we realize now that's not good either. But this new version is definitely awesome and fantastic. You can trust us! Get rid of your old books and buy all new ones!"

That's obviously a gross oversimplification, but it was an underlying theme I sensed in a lot of communication. That in itself doesn't kill 4E for me, but the things I've read about the changes to the game don't make me more inclined to try it. I still haven't bought the books, but I was willing to give it a try based on what I saw...in the DDI. That, my friends, is the biggest failure of the marketing campaign. The feeling that they lied to me about what would be available.

You can argue all day that the online component is not D&D, the books give me everything to play. That isn't the point. DDI was touted in all the talk-up of 4E to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and would truly make 4E the game everyone wanted to play. Well, it didn't happen, and probably won't happen until sometime next year. The lack of communication in terms of a new marketing strategy (i.e., they could have said "4E is awesome, and when DDI goes online later it will be even better!" sometime in March) kills it for me. WotC comes off as snake oil salesmen, promising one thing and delivering another. I don't know if that's what JD Wider was getting at, but that's how I see it.

 

[delericho]

The part of this that I really don't get is that you take issue w/their tone when it isn't even an issue for you. It comes off (esp in text) like you were just looking for something to get offended by.

I really wasn't, but I can see how someone could get that impression. (And I'd equally bet that WotC didn't set out to annoy me by their tone, but it worked out like that - ironic, no?)

The "don't convert" comment was just something I was using by way of an example, btw.

Bands intentionally leak albums to P2P networks to drum up interest.

I know, and I hate that. But I really don't want to get started on a rant about this, since I'm sure it's political.

 

[delericho]

Come on. I've been a staunch defender of the EL/CR system too, but, even I realize that it's far more voodoo than science. There are just far too many things that can throw CR/EL out of whack.

It's possible that I was adjusting things without thinking, or that I was just lucky. But I honestly never had a problem with the system.

Surely I can't be the only one who remembers pretty much weekly threads bemoaning the failure of the 3e encounter design system.

No, I remember the threads. They didn't match my experience, is all I'm saying.

Incidentally, the 4e model of monster levels and minion/normal/elite/solo creatures is a vast improvement over the CR/EL system.

 

[Imaro]

Come on. I've been a staunch defender of the EL/CR system too, but, even I realize that it's far more voodoo than science. There are just far too many things that can throw CR/EL out of whack. As an experienced player, I can adjust for that. As a new DM, I was having all sorts of problems.

Surely I can't be the only one who remembers pretty much weekly threads bemoaning the failure of the 3e encounter design system.

What I'm wondering is, did 4e really fix this? I mean there have been various threads about the D&D gameday and KotS that give ranges of combats being a breeze to groups having TPK's. I personally think no system is going to be able to give you an exact encounter with an exact challenge level for your group (and IMHO 4e can't do this either). I'm just starting to feel like people are getting the new shiny way of doing things confused with actual results.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What I'm wondering is, did 4e really fix this? I mean there have been various threads about the D&D gameday and KotS that give ranges of combats being a breeze to groups having TPK's. I personally think no system is going to be able to give you an exact encounter with an exact challenge level for your group (and IMHO 4e can't do this either). I'm just starting to feel like people are getting the new shiny way of doing things confused with actual results.

So far I have not seen any inconsistent results in the reports.

White Dragon Fight: Very hard, barely doable. As is expected if you're fighting a Level 4 Encounter at level 1.
Fight against random group of Kobolds: Easy. As is expected for a Level 1 encounter against level 1 group.

Of course, only long-term experience will show the flaws and short-comings of the system. The 3E systems weakness only become more obvious with more splat-books, more monster manuals, and a higher degree of system mastery.

 

[Imaro]

So far I have not seen any inconsistent results in the reports.

White Dragon Fight: Very hard, barely doable. As is expected if you're fighting a Level 4 Encounter at level 1.
Fight against random group of Kobolds: Easy. As is expected for a Level 1 encounter against level 1 group.

Of course, only long-term experience will show the flaws and short-comings of the system. The 3E systems weakness only become more obvious with more splat-books, more monster manuals, and a higher degree of system mastery.

This thread has alot of variation as far as the various encounters in KotS go...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227871

 

[Shazman]

Seriously? Yes I'll answer some stuff.

But not tonight my mood is foul so I am going drinking with a Half-Orc Barbarian buddy.

You must have a time machine and be drinking in the future ,because your buddy doesn't exist in 4E yet.

 

[am181d]

You must have a time machine and be drinking in the future ,because your buddy doesn't exist in 4E yet.

Your time machine is pointed the wrong way. The post before he was waxing nostalgic about gnome druids and Spelljammer.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Your time machine is pointed the wrong way. The post before he was waxing nostalgic about gnome druids and Spelljammer.

Useless Random Factoid:
Jammer sounds like "jammern" in German and means "moaning" or "whining".

(It's also a skill that some people - typically German - say us German have mastered. "Jammern auf hohen Niveau" "Whining on a high level", as in "Oh, no, gas prices are raised again - I might have to cut my yearly Mallorca vacation short from 14 days to 10 days!" "Oh no, 4E Dragons cannot be secret leaders of conspiracies any more"... "People say my newest hobby is just a board-game, but I want them to admit I am still playing a role-playing game")