Marking defenders who grapple

[Dannyalcatraz]

I didn't want to threadjack this thread, , but it got me thinking.

How effective is 4Ed grappling, and could you build a Defender who grapples marked foes from behind, making the foe take damage from the mark if he does anything besides attack his grappler?

Pros/Cons?

 

[OnlineDM]

4e has the Grabbed condition, which can be imposed either by a Grab attack (basically an unarmed Strenth versus versus Fortitude attack) or by certain powers that have "... and the target is Grabbed..." as part of the Hit line.

Escaping a grab can be done via a move action, with an Athletics or Acrobatics check against the grabber's Fortitude or Reflex defense. A grab can also be ended by the target teleporting out, the grabbee being force-moved out of the grabber's reach, etc.

So, how effective is a grab-focused defender? Well, I believe the Brawler Fighter has powers that work with grabbing, so it can be done. But basically, the only effect of grabbing a foe is that the foe can't move away from you without some work. So, it adds another step to the process of getting away from the defender. That's a good thing, I suppose, but not super-exciting.

 

[keterys]

Brawler fighters can be super effective at grabbing - in many cases they can prone and grab an enemy and deny them the ability to teleport, forcing escape attempts against the brawler's fortitude (which the monster cannot make) such that the enemy basically cannot get away, no matter what.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Brawler fighters can be super effective at grabbing - in many cases they can prone and grab an enemy and deny them the ability to teleport, forcing escape attempts against the brawler's fortitude (which the monster cannot make) such that the enemy basically cannot get away, no matter what.

Yeah, they can be pretty brutal. An example of one of their powers is Bash and Pinion, a level 1 Encounter power...

Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must have a hand free.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square to a square adjacent to you. You grab the target, and until the grab ends, it takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Dexterity modifier. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn.

As long as that enemy is grabbed, they move away from the Defender with anything short of a teleport or an escape attempt. I don't know if a Brawler would be the best primary Defender in a party though...they seem more suited to a good single target lock-down style Defender. I've yet to see one in play, but at least looking through the build they seem pretty interesting.

 

[FreeXenon]

We had a warforged brawling fighter in our group once and wow did he mess people up. Moving people here and there in to and out of flanking - proning them.... it was a lot of fun for us, and not so much fun for the DM.

 

[Herobizkit]

[MENTION=6228]FreeXenon[/MENTION]: How do you mean, a "brawling" fighter? The Warforged just fought with his fists or something? How is that effective?

 

[Argyle King]

How effective is 4Ed grappling,

Not very... generally speaking.


There are a few niche builds which make it a workable concept, but, in general, I've found 4E's grab to be fairly poor in comparison to other options.

 

[FreeXenon]

[MENTION=6228]FreeXenon[/MENTION]: How do you mean, a "brawling" fighter? The Warforged just fought with his fists or something? How is that effective?

Referring to the Brawler/Grappling fighter build. I am not sure what the specific fighter build is called.

 

[Ferghis]

Fey Slaughter Spiked Gloves are a brawler fix against teleporting. And there's a must-have feat that makes all escape attempts against fortitude, which brawler's max out to the point that no appropriate-level monster could break away. Two free hands and a sash of ensnarement allow you to grab three targets.

I tried to make an optimized build, but the real problem for brawlers is that daze and stun conditions, however brief, immediately release any grabs. These are not rare conditions for monsters to inflict. While these conditions also penalize other defenders, most good grap powers are encounter or daily powers, so once you've expended it, you can't re-establish one as good quite as easily. Other defenders just start punishing their marks again as before.

 

[keterys]

but the real problem for brawlers is that daze and stun conditions, however brief, immediately release any grabs. These are not rare conditions for monsters to inflict.

Daze does not end grabs - not as of the rules compendium or maybe before that, but the original line that grabs end when you get dazed has been excised.

Stun still does (as does unconscious, petrify, etc).