D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[ECMO3]

Yeah. Only fighters. And specially tailored ones. The generic fighter is behind in skills unless they are decent based due to the imbalance of ability scores.

The generic fighter is not behind in skills, they are WAY, WAY ahead in skills as compared to a Rogue or any other class at levels 2-5.

And fighter lack the magic to help bypass limitations like bards and rangers or brute force versatility of rogues

The have more versatility than Rogues at level 2-5 because they are FAR better at skill checks.

Throwing out Tactical Mind for that +5.5 to a check is nice though.

It is not nice, it blows away anything else at this level. Further it is not a constant +5.5, it is a random number from 1-10 and it is only used up if it turns a failure into a success. The fact that it is only used up if it changes the outcome makes it substantially more powerful than a constant +5.5 would be and makes its effect over the course of an adventuring day more significant.

Comparing a Fighter with no proficiency at all to a Rogue with expertise - assuming 2 short rests Tactical Mind is mathematically more effective at level 2-3 than expertise as long as you have less than 11 checks per day in the two skills the Rogue has expertise in.

With no short rests at all it is still mathematically more effective than Expertise unless you have 5+ checks a day.

That is level 2-3, at level 4 when the fighter gets another use those numbers climb.

In terms of the other 16 skills Fighters and Rogues are identical in tier 1: 4 regular proficiency and 12 not proficient.

This gets closer at level 6 and 7 when Rogues get reliable talent and two more expertise slots and at level 9 when expertise goes to +8 it largely disappears (vs Rogues), but level 2-5 Fighters are the kings of skill checks except in very highly situational circumstances where a Rogue would be rolling checks many, many times a day with expertise.

 

[CreamCloud0]

MoAR's Elementalist class is a half-caster class that does make use of a spell point system. Unlike most spellcasters, the Elementalist's power is described as being raw and unrefined and thus requires some care to shape it into a true spell. It costs about 2 spell points to cast a 1st-level spell (3 pts for a 2nd-level spell, 5 pts for a 3rd-level spell, 6 pts for a 4th-level spell and about 7 pts for a 5th level spell). Spell points are also used by the Elementalist to augment the shape and substance of their Elemental blast. If you applied a Shape Augment that cost about 2 spell points with a Substance Augment that cost about 3 spell points, the blast would be the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.

interesting, though if you were going for a 'truly simple' champion-equivalent caster you probably wouldn't want to include those kinds of augment abilities in their design.

known caster, short spell list (supplemented by subclass expanded spell lists), spell point casting, a handful of passive abilities and a short rest arcane recovery mechanic.

 

[Clint_L]

Nah. In most other systems magic tends to be much more restricted. Either there's a real cost involved, there's some risk involved, or it's in some way much more difficult to use liberally like magic is in D&D. Try Call of Cthulhu, Dragonbane, Mörk Borg, etc etc

I admit I haven't played any superhero RPGs aside from Mutants and Masterminds but I am fairly confident that magic isn't overpowered in that system and I am willing to bet any amount of money that if you present a broken caster build I can present a non-caster that is equally broken. The cute little catch about that system is that anything that you can do with magic can also be done without magic.

You give someone permanent flight because of magic?

I make a character with permanent flight because so they are just that good at jumping.

You give someone magic beams they shoot with their eyes?

I make a character who can snap their fingers so hard it creates a shockwave of destruction.

You give someone magical mind control powers?

I make a character so charming people become their thrall.

As you can see, anything that magic can do can also be done without magic.

That sounds like a game that only has one class, and just calls the same powers different things. Other than semantics, what is the difference between magical mind control guy, and charming mind control guy?

 

[Micah Sweet]

interesting, though if you were going for a 'truly simple' champion-equivalent caster you probably wouldn't want to include those kinds of augment abilities in their design.

known caster, short spell list (supplemented by subclass expanded spell lists), spell point casting, a handful of passive abilities and a short rest arcane recovery mechanic.

What would put them on par with the existing more complex and versatile casters? Just bigger numbers?

 

[Minigiant]

The generic fighter is not behind in skills, they are WAY, WAY ahead in skills as compared to a Rogue or any other class at levels 2-5.

I agree.

Tactical Mind is VERY powerful at low levels if you are rolling only a few ability checks per day.
Once you get to level 5, Expertise is close enough to be better without costing resources.

But that's 1 Warrior out of the 3.
The Experts (Bard, Ranger, Rogue) are only average better at skills than the Warriors (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk).

This gets closer at level 6 and 7 when Rogues get reliable talent and two more expertise slots and at level 9 when expertise goes to +8 it largely disappears (vs Rogues), but level 2-5 Fighters are the kings of skill checks except in very highly situational circumstances where a Rogue would be rolling checks many, many times a day with expertise.

Which is the point. Experts are better at being a party's skill monkey than a Fighter on the long run and always better than the Barbarian and Monk.

Same for the Ranger and Paladin being better damage at low level then all the Warriors pasting them in Tier 2.

Warriors are the best warriors and should be.
Experts are the best skill monkeys and should be.
Priests are the best supports and should be.
Mages are the best magicians and should be.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

That sounds like a game that only has one class, and just calls the same powers different things. Other than semantics, what is the difference between magical mind control guy, and charming mind control guy?

It's a system where you buy abilities with power points. It doesn't have classes at all.

Obviously the mind control guy uses magic and thus anyone with immunity to magic is immune. Anyone with any power that can interact specifically with the magic descriptor can interact with it.

On the other hand, the charming guy likely needs to be seen, and thus needs visual contact.

There are plenty of differences like this because while a lot of effects can be similar, the descriptor is different.

It's why a laser rifle can be "ranged damage 10" and why magical eye beam can be "ranged damage 10" and why shockwave punch can be "ranged damage 10". The descriptor is often relevant.

 

[CreamCloud0]

What would put them on par with the existing more complex and versatile casters? Just bigger numbers?

something like that probably, i mean, that's most of what the champion is right? i'd imagine giving them an improved unarmoured defence/mage armour ability for better AC, +casting mod on cantrip and spell damage, CON save proficiency and then their spell point conversion just ratios out on average as more slots per level than other casters of their level (assuming they're casting in a roughly equal slots per level basis to a regular caster and not just blowing them all on their biggest slot a handful of times), nothing worldshattering but just letting them have overall better mileage.

 

[Minigiant]

something like that probably, i mean, that's most of what the champion is right? i'd imagine giving them an improved unarmoured defence/mage armour ability for better AC, +casting mod on cantrip and spell damage, CON save proficiency and then their spell point conversion just ratios out on average as more slots per level than other casters of their level (assuming they're casting in a roughly equal slots per level basis to a regular caster and not just blowing them all on their biggest slot a handful of times), nothing worldshattering but just letting them have overall better mileage.

Personally I wasn't thinking more like a Warlock with default Pact Magic but more Invocations.

I always imagine a Chosen class or an even more generic Adventurer class with it's own internal feat-like system where you can customize your PC.

You can take Cantrip Master for cantrips, Agonizing Blast, and Dreadful Blast to make a simple blaster
You can take Blade Prodigy for swords, Keen Eye for sword crits, and Overwhelming strike for a simple warrior.
Toy can take Hammer Prodigy for swords, Cursed Skin, and Occult Shield for a simple tank.
You can take Blade Prodigy, Surgeon, and Daggermaster for a simple offensive "thief" with healing support.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Personally I wasn't thinking more like a Warlock with default Pact Magic but more Invocations.

I always imagine a Chosen class or an even more generic Adventurer class with it's own internal feat-like system where you can customize your PC.

You can take Cantrip Master for cantrips, Agonizing Blast, and Dreadful Blast to make a simple blaster
You can take Blade Prodigy for swords, Keen Eye for sword crits, and Overwhelming strike for a simple warrior.
Toy can take Hammer Prodigy for swords, Cursed Skin, and Occult Shield for a simple tank.
You can take Blade Prodigy, Surgeon, and Daggermaster for a simple offensive "thief" with healing support.

i wouldn't be entirely opposed to the concept of a generic basic adventurer class but i did think the earlier question was 'how would you make a simple caster'

in all honesty if we did have separate true 'simple classes' i think i'd try to rework the sidekick classes somehow for those ends.

 

[Corinnguard]

i wouldn't be entirely opposed to the concept of a generic basic adventurer class but i did think the earlier question was 'how would you make a simple caster'

in all honesty if we did have separate true 'simple classes' i think i'd try to rework the sidekick classes somehow for those ends.

In 3e's Unearthed Arcana, there were the basic classes of Adept, Expert and Warrior.