Martial characters and rituals

[neceros]

Further, things like divinations wouldn't need to be relegated to spellcasting classes. Anyone can take in some incense, mediate, and gain insight into the world in a fantasy setting.

John Locke, anyone?

 

[lexoanvil]

i dont see why a fighter or rogue shouldnt be able to cast arcane/divine ish rituals. so long as they require a large investments into arcana or religeion skills. if they are cross class it makes it even more hard for them to do. from what we have heard about rituals you need a scroll or book instucting you what to do , not manifest your own magic. it seems similar to alchemical crafting of things like alchemist fire or holy water so long as you have potent skill and knowlage and mats you dont need to be a wizard or cleric. for instance a scroll for teleport might involve this.
draw a casting circle with chalk, paint ,blood(first arcana skill check( DC30). then gather a item from the place you want to go a painting, plant an item ( second skill check DC30 +couple 100 gold). finally 5-10 min of chanting a long passage of magic words (DC 30 check per 5 min) what about this seems unreasonable for a fighter who spends hours in a library learning how to read said scroll/book potently.

 

[ThirdWizard]

If a fighter can spend a feat to learn Healing Word or Magic Missile or any number of other spells, I don't see what's so odd about a fighter spending a feat to learn to cast rituals.

 

[Falling Icicle]

If a fighter can spend a feat to learn Healing Word or Magic Missile or any number of other spells, I don't see what's so odd about a fighter spending a feat to learn to cast rituals.

The thing that bothers me is that those rituals used to be Wizard and Cleric spells, and were a huge part of their mystique and role in the world. Wizards were said to train for years, even decades to master those arcane formulae, learn about alchemy and gain a thorough understanding of the occult forces at play in the universe. Throwing fireballs were just simple tricks in comparison to the more complicated spells. The same goes for Clerics. While anyone can pray to a god, clerics had a much greater devotion and became actual proxies for their deities. They had to study, meditate and recite special prayers, all in an effort to understand how to actually call upon and channel divine forces, rather than simply request them.

By first making all of those spells rituals, and then enabling anyone to learn them, they've basically butchered the Wizard and Cleric classes and given all their best stuff away. Magic just doesn't have the same feel to me when anyone can pick it up for a feat or two. I don't really like the idea of Wizards using divine rituals or Clerics using arcane rituals either. I can understand that, assuming the classes are all balanced without rituals, it wouldn't exactly be fair to martial classes if they were cut off completely from that option. I just don't really like the implications it has.

 

[Falling Icicle]

If a fighter can spend a feat to learn Healing Word or Magic Missile or any number of other spells, I don't see what's so odd about a fighter spending a feat to learn to cast rituals.

Well, if rituals required you to have that power source, either by your regular class or via multiclassing, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If a fighter spends the feat(s) to multiclass into a cleric, he basically is a cleric, and I wouldn't mind him being able to gain divine rituals with further feat purchases. I just want it to require a significant investment, to discourage every single character from having rituals. If all it takes is the ritual casting feat, that's not a significant investment at all.

 

[lexoanvil]

Well, if rituals required you to have that power source, either by your regular class or via multiclassing, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If a fighter spends the feat(s) to multiclass into a cleric, he basically is a cleric, and I wouldn't mind him being able to gain divine rituals with further feat purchases. I just want it to require a significant investment, to discourage every single character from having rituals. If all it takes is the ritual casting feat, that's not a significant investment at all.

i would almost bet money rituals that are clasic wizard/cleric spells will have large investments in them like arcana and other skills/feats . if i had to guess for a fighter/rogue to cast a ritual a 6th lv wizard could do it would take them till like 12-15 and not be as good.

 

[DandD]

Throwing fireballs isn't a simple trick compared to other spells. It's rated higher then a spell that creates a small pocket dimension which you can enter through a rope for example in the current system. At the highest level (withou epic), you can then throw a super-powered fireball, which you call meteor swarm. It's more complicated and higher-classed than a spell that creates a magnificent mansion that is impenetrable from the outside and has permanent good food in it and every luxury needed for.
Basically, that's the proof that the old system isn't logical at all.
Just forget the old system.

 

[mach1.9pants]

@Icicle, if it bothers you don't let martial classes learn that feat, unless they multi-class first. I know one of my players will play a fighter, ranger or rogue in 4E. He always plays a non-magical character, which meant in 3E we never did high level play (cos they sucked) until Bo9S came out. I guarantee he will not take the ritual feat, it is not his characters style.
Oh and 4E I can't see us playing epic either, for this reason. but we might give it a go.

 

[Lacyon]

Well, if rituals required you to have that power source, either by your regular class or via multiclassing, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If a fighter spends the feat(s) to multiclass into a cleric, he basically is a cleric, and I wouldn't mind him being able to gain divine rituals with further feat purchases. I just want it to require a significant investment, to discourage every single character from having rituals. If all it takes is the ritual casting feat, that's not a significant investment at all.

Multiclassing in 4E is, from what we know, essentially a feat-based exercise. If you can take a multiclass feat and "have that power source", why can't you take a ritual casting feat and "have that power source" at least well enough to cast rituals?

 

[Irda Ranger]

The thing that bothers me is that those rituals used to be Wizard and Cleric spells, and were a huge part of their mystique and role in the world. Wizards were said to train for years, even decades to master those arcane formulae, learn about alchemy and gain a thorough understanding of the occult forces at play in the universe. Throwing fireballs were just simple tricks in comparison to the more complicated spells. The same goes for Clerics. While anyone can pray to a god, clerics had a much greater devotion and became actual proxies for their deities. They had to study, meditate and recite special prayers, all in an effort to understand how to actually call upon and channel divine forces, rather than simply request them.

I guess you never allowed multi-classing in 2E or 3E then?

By first making all of those spells rituals, and then enabling anyone to learn them, they've basically butchered the Wizard and Cleric classes and given all their best stuff away. Magic just doesn't have the same feel to me when anyone can pick it up for a feat or two.

You also have to pore through ancient tomes until you fight the right book, bargain, cajole or steal the components, have the requisite skills, etc. Getting the Feat is only the first step.

I don't really like the idea of Wizards using divine rituals or Clerics using arcane rituals either.

Clerics of Boccob? Wizards who have studied at Seminary and learned the secrets of the Faith?