Martial Controller: Auxiliary (Version 0.11) -Updated Preview Character (Aug. 9th)

The new 4e SRD lists Harrier as a 4e Reference that cannot be defined, redefined, or altered (under the Hyena of all things).

Which means the search for another name for the Harrier has begun once again... ;)

If you have any suggestions feel free to send them my way as I consider my naming options.
 

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jaldaen said:
If this is built into the volley mechanic, then how would that interact with volleys that have ongoing zones of effect? Would it be better to say "Users may refuse to target a square that would otherwise be affected by the power"? That might work, but then you have to explain what happens with ongoing or sustained zones, etc...

The question is: Is the added flexibility worth the added complexity of design... perhaps it is... but I try to KIS (Keep It Simple) as much as possible and that seems to be a 4e design concept too.

I think it's fairly simple to adjudicate. First, I don't think we are talking about squares here, we are talking about targets. For each use of a volley related power you may or may not choose to attack an otherwise legitimate target.

I can't help but think that adding a new keyword function is a simpler solution than creating a whole new attack form.

Attack forms interact with a whole host of other rules systems, most pivotally OAs and the powers system.

Keywords only interact with the subset of the powers system to which they are applied. You make a keyword off of volley and it gets to use the terms, definitions, and balances for the established attack forms.

A keyword adds both flexibility and simplicity.
 
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sorry I hadn't had a chance to really work with the information recently. I haven't forgotten, just got tied up with the druid. :) Anyway, I have a game starting where i'm gonna cameo a harrier (until the name changes) and see how it goes.
 

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
I think it's fairly simple to adjudicate. First, I don't think we are talking about squares here, we are talking about targets. For each use of a volley related power you may or may not choose to attack an otherwise legitimate target.

The thing is that bursts target squares, not individual targets.

I can't help but think that adding a new keyword function is a simpler solution than creating a whole new attack form.

I think both have their ups and downs. The question is which one has more of an up side.

Volley as a keyword upside:

1) Can be used to modify an attack type with minimal of hassel (cover from attacker, etc.).

Volley as a keyword downside:

*1) If used in conjunction with the 4e reference "burst," then all powers with it will need to be "Area burst [#] within [#] squares."
This is because "burst" is defined as such in the new SRD and cannot be defined, redefined, or altered in any way.

Volley as attack type upside:

1) Can create a Ranged (weapon-based) area attack.
2) Both Ranged and Area attacks have the same interaction with OAs.

Volley as attack type downside:

1) The need to define a new attack type in such a way as it is easy to understand and works within current system.

*For me this is the biggest downside... 4e references being defined so concretely, I would be worried about creating a Ranged "burst" as opposed to an Area burst. Of course like I said I could just change all the "Ranged volley" descriptors in the Harrier to say "Area burst" and then use the Volley keyword to "alter the rules" for bursts, but that seems like adding an extra step to the whole process when I could just define a Ranged "volley" attack and have done with it.

Attack forms interact with a whole host of other rules systems, most pivotally OAs and the powers system.

The nice thing about Ranged and Area attacks is they share the OA system... as for power system, could you be more specific?

Keywords only interact with the subset of the powers system to which they are applied. You make a keyword off of volley and it gets to use the terms, definitions, and balances for the established attack forms.

Indeed, but according to the 4e SRD you also cannot change their presentation of bursts, so they would all need to read "Area burst [#] within [#] squares."

Now I admit I'm fine with this, but it does have the drawback of taking away the "feel" of using a ranged weapon. The question is whether a "volley" keyword would be able to address this issue.

A keyword adds both flexibility and simplicity.

Perhaps normally, but the 4e SRD does complicate the matter with the 4e references ;)
 

malcolm_n said:
sorry I hadn't had a chance to really work with the information recently. I haven't forgotten, just got tied up with the druid. :) Anyway, I have a game starting where i'm gonna cameo a harrier (until the name changes) and see how it goes.

That's okay... I downloaded the Druid last night... looks very nice ;)

Thanks for playtesting the Harrier, its nice to get play experience-based feedback ;)
 

So I'm leaning towards "Auxiliary" as an alternative name for the Harrier (formerly known as the Skirmisher). Its not the best name, but it fits all the different concepts of a Harrier under the same banner and is less likely to become a 4e Reference in the near future.

Volleyer is another option, but it just looks and sounds odd to me.

Another option would be to come up with a "Warlord/Warlock" type double noun name that is unlikely to become a 4e Reference but indicates exactly what the role of the martial controller is on the battlefield. For example, Battlebarrager (terrible... I know) ;)

Anyone else have any comments on Auxiliary, Volleyer, Noun-noun names and/or suggestions on other appropriate names?
 

jaldaen said:
The thing is that bursts target squares, not individual targets.

True, but within that definition you do not attack individual squares. You make attacks against targets within those squares. Volley enables you to refuse an attack.




jaldaen said:
Volley as a keyword downside:

*1) If used in conjunction with the 4e reference "burst," then all powers with it will need to be "Area burst [#] within [#] squares."
This is because "burst" is defined as such in the new SRD and cannot be defined, redefined, or altered in any way.

I don't think this is the best interpretation of the GSL, since a keyword adds to the applicability of a power which is explicitly allowed under the GSL.

Also, this is a feature. I think you want to use the attack schematics already used by every other power in the game. It makes it easier to have these powers interact with standard adventure design.



jaldaen said:
*For me this is the biggest downside... 4e references being defined so concretely, I would be worried about creating a Ranged "burst" as opposed to an Area burst. Of course like I said I could just change all the "Ranged volley" descriptors in the Harrier to say "Area burst" and then use the Volley keyword to "alter the rules" for bursts, but that seems like adding an extra step to the whole process when I could just define a Ranged "volley" attack and have done with it.

You're evaluating this in too linear a fashion.

A.) Keywords are already a part of most powers so this doesn't represent an extra step in the sum total intepretation of a power.

B.) Creating a new attack adds a whole new range of choices since attack modes seem to be one of the key 'limited' choice ranges in the grammar of powers.

Further, in terms of use of reference, attack modes are defined in the combat rules section, the begining of the character rules section, and at every point where the grammar of powers is described.

Keywords, on the other hand, are described in each class section to which they are relevant. Even where those keywords - such as implement - are repeated in multiple classes.

Developing a new keyword for a class represnts much less of a challenge in terms of the overall information structure of the manuals than futzing around with the overall tight structure of the combat rules. Someone wants to know what a keyword is that someone looks at the relevant class description. They want to know what an attack mode is and they look at the combat section, which is something it's going to be a lot harder for us to rewrite.

Even if, in terms of the straight application of the class, the keyword represents an extra step. But you don't want to simplify a class by getting rid of established steps, that's like getting rid of a direct object in a sentence by making it a suffix to the verb. It may simplify the structure of the sentence, but it actually complicates the grammar.



jaldaen said:
The nice thing about Ranged and Area attacks is they share the OA system... as for power system, could you be more specific?

The OA system keys off of attack modes. It isn't ranged attacks and ranged area attacks provoke OA, it's OA's are provoked by the following kinds of attacks: Ranged attacks, area attacks.

You make a new kind of attack and you have to define how it works in terms of that system and every other system that keys off of specific attack modes. Which may be simple from the perspective of straight up writing, but is nasty in terms of document design.



jaldaen said:
Indeed, but according to the 4e SRD you also cannot change their presentation of bursts, so they would all need to read "Area burst [#] within [#] squares."

Now I admit I'm fine with this, but it does have the drawback of taking away the "feel" of using a ranged weapon. The question is whether a "volley" keyword would be able to address this issue.

Perhaps normally, but the 4e SRD does complicate the matter with the 4e references ;)

Well, but for me part of the feel of a ranged weapon is that you should have some choice in how you use it. Making volley a keyword let's you choose between area burst or close burst in terms of writing your powers.

Now you can make powers that still the ranged weapon but don't provoke OAs since they are Close Burst powers.

I do think that keywords the modify the applicability of a prior term rather than the prior term itself are both allowable and sort of the point. Making classes that couldn't modify the applicability of the attack modes would be largely impossible. Making classes with their powers and the accompanying modifiying keywords is clearly something WotC wants you to be able to do.
 
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Auxilliary is awesome:

1: It's archaic - just like Ranger, Rogue, Paladin, and Warlord

2: It describes the role - this guy is your cunning second rank soldier, which is exactly what a wizard is except he has more degrees

3: Every exemplar we've described for the class fits the term auxilliary - sappers? check
skirmishers? check
snipers? check
tribal warriors? check
peltasts? check
Roman Auxiliaries? double check

It's practically perfect in every way.
 

True, but within that definition you do not attack individual squares. You make attacks against targets within those squares. Volley enables you to refuse an attack.

Right... but I am also concerned with the zones created by an Area attack. If you can omit a particular target from an Area burst, then the question of what happens to the zone effect in that square needs to be asked.

I don't think this is the best interpretation of the GSL, since a keyword adds to the applicability of a power which is explicitly allowed under the GSL.

Also, this is a feature. I think you want to use the attack schematics already used by every other power in the game. It makes it easier to have these powers interact with standard adventure design.

I agree keywords add flexibility, but the problem I see is that the "Area burst [#] within [#] squares" is something that cannot be redesigned, which means there is no difference between how one would express the power when using projectile or thrown weapons. Sure you could add a requirment for certain long range powers, but then you have to start designing thrown weapon/projectile weapon only powers and adding "Requirments" to powers. If the expression of Area burst was not defined in this way it might work. In addition, the volley keyword would have to be just as long as the volley attack entry because it would have to explain how weapons work with the Area burst.

A.) Keywords are already a part of most powers so this doesn't represent an extra step in the sum total intepretation of a power.

Actually keywords are add-ons to powers and mechanical ones do add an extra, exceptions-based step to the power reading process, especially when we are talking about an exception-based attack type that will be in almost every one of the class' powers.

I just think its much cleaner design-wise to not confuse the issue with Volley keyword and "Area burst..." attack when I can just have "Ranged volley..." and be done with it.

B.) Creating a new attack adds a whole new range of choices since attack modes seem to be one of the key 'limited' choice ranges in the grammar of powers.

Or WotC choose to KIS for the Core Books and not add a Ranged weapon AoE attack because they didn't need one since there were no martial controllers and thus no need for a Ranged AoE.

Further, in terms of use of reference, attack modes are defined in the combat rules section, the begining of the character rules section, and at every point where the grammar of powers is described.

The thing is that as a 4e supplement anyone who has access to the class will also have access to its new keywords and new attack type definitions.

Keywords, on the other hand, are described in each class section to which they are relevant. Even where those keywords - such as implement - are repeated in multiple classes.

Actually I did not see in the classes where specific keywords other than Implement are explained. Healing Lore for clerics mentions the "Healing" keyword, but only in order to explain adding your Wisdom mod. It does not define Healing or Radiant at all.

Developing a new keyword for a class represnts much less of a challenge in terms of the overall information structure of the manuals than futzing around with the overall tight structure of the combat rules. Someone wants to know what a keyword is that someone looks at the relevant class description. They want to know what an attack mode is and they look at the combat section, which is something it's going to be a lot harder for us to rewrite.

Actually as I just mentioned above other than Implements the other keywords are defined outside of each class (at the beginning of the class chapter). Since the Harrier class would be self contained and include all the necessary keywords and attack types it shouldn't be a problem. In addition, no matter if its a keyword or an attack type both will require reference outside the PHB so that is a wash for me.

Even if, in terms of the straight application of the class, the keyword represents an extra step. But you don't want to simplify a class by getting rid of established steps, that's like getting rid of a direct object in a sentence by making it a suffix to the verb. It may simplify the structure of the sentence, but it actually complicates the grammar.

However, I'm not getting rid of an established step. I'm creating an alternate step for Ranged attacks to take.

The OA system keys off of attack modes. It isn't ranged attacks and ranged area attacks provoke OA, it's OA's are provoked by the following kinds of attacks: Ranged attacks, area attacks.

I think I said that ;)

You make a new kind of attack and you have to define how it works in terms of that system and every other system that keys off of specific attack modes. Which may be simple from the perspective of straight up writing, but is nasty in terms of document design.

Actually as a "Ranged" volley it would provoke OAs by the mere fact that it uses Ranged at the beginning because that is what OAs key off of, not what follows.

Well, but for me part of the feel of a ranged weapon is that you should have some choice in how you use it. Making volley a keyword let's you choose between area burst or close burst in terms of writing your powers.

That's one of the reasons why I have close burst powers mixed into the Harrier as is and in addition I have the close quarters zontrol zone to help out with enemies who get too close.

In addition, it would be odd to have a power that can switch between Area burst and close burst because one provokes OAs and the other doesn't. You might want flexibility but if the powers are too flexibile then they become auto-picks for multiclassing.

Unless you just meant powers in general falling into the two categories... in that case I agree having both OA proking and non-provoking powers available is a must for a controller.

Now you can make powers that still the ranged weapon but don't provoke OAs since they are Close Burst powers.

Actually I could already do that without worrying about Area bursts... they are not married concepts ;)

I do think that keywords the modify the applicability of a prior term rather than the prior term itself are both allowable and sort of the point. Making classes that couldn't modify the applicability of the attack modes would be largely impossible. Making classes with their powers and the accompanying modifiying keywords is clearly something WotC wants you to be able to do.

I think you're right on this point, but my only concern is 1) not redefining 4e References (which means the Area burst would have to read: Area burst [#] within [#] squares; 2) ease of use. The first one is a major negative in the Area burst column because how doe you work in weapon range to that equation.

I suppose you could do the following:

Area burst [1,2, or 3] within # squares

With the Volley keyword saying something to the effect of:

When reading "within # squares" insert the maximum range of the weapon you are using to create the Area burst as the "#."

However, that seems odd and clunky compared to saying:

Ranged volley [1,2, or 3] within weapon range

The only real problem with "volley" is it might be a term that is later defined by WotC as a 4e reference, however since this would probably be a pdf product I could always change it when that happens and it'll be consistent for anyone purchasing the product.
 
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I missed the clause under "Ranged Attack" that specifically states that they "don't create areas of effect." This is even more of an obstacle than the Area burst problem, so I might have to go with Area burst + a keyword, but I'm still trying to think of other options...

I could create an entirely new attack category besides Ranged and Area since they are so heavily defined and any keyword I create would create to alter how Area attack powers work would take up about as much space as a new Attack category would.
 
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