Martial Controllers

[Saeviomagy]

Really the only thing missing from the rogue to make it a controller is an at-will that targets multiple foes and an at-will that slides, pushes or pulls.

 

[Quickleaf]

3) Although the Martial classes have some control in their design and powers, they do not have at-will control nore do they have control built in as part of their class design.

Sure you can build a char with aoe and some dehibilitations, but that does not make you a controller.

All around, good points, but I wanted to draw attention to this point. One of the designers recently said that you should get a solid sense of a class' role and flavor from just class features & at-will powers. I think it was in reference to the Essentials line, but for the life of me can't find the quote. *sigh*

 

[cmbarona]

All around, good points, but I wanted to draw attention to this point. One of the designers recently said that you should get a solid sense of a class' role and flavor from just class features & at-will powers. I think it was in reference to the Essentials line, but for the life of me can't find the quote. *sigh*

Hmm... I remember something along those lines in an old article about class design. This might be it: Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Character Classes)
Interestingly, Mearls (again, if I linked the right article) did take a small jab at the Martial Controller discussion by saying that the initial class concept should inform the power source and combat role, not vice versa.

That being said, I disagree. I think the three are integrally related. For example, I love the Warlord class. Part of that is the more general class concept, but part of it is the Badass Normal appeal. In a world of magic, it's pretty awesome to be able to stand up to that magic with nothing but training and determination (depending on the extent of your magic equipment) backing you up. Similarly, there's a certain appeal in being a sort of leader. Take your pick of archetypes... The Strategist, Drill Sergeant, etc.

Similarly, there's an appeal to certain controller-ish archetypes (Tricksters, Chessmasters, etc.), depending on how you define a controller. One could argue that some of these are already covered in the Trickster Rogue, the Tactical Warlord, etc., but as many have pointed out before, having a class dedicated to that role is vastly different from a class that dabbles in it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, on the precipice of Essentials doing away with 4E:

What would a martial controller look like now?

The Essential Fighter can be a Defender (Knight) or Striker (Slayer). Why not a Controller?

:drumroll:



Piker

Key Abilities: Strength, Intelligence

Matial Controller: Fighters such as the Piker do not seek glory or fight with reckless abandon. They are thinking warriors, who stack the deck in their favor before playing the deadly game of combat.

Why This is the Class for You: You want to play a canny warrior who masters tactics and weapons that give him unique advantages in combat and let him exert influence over the choices of enemies as well as allies. You may also just love the look on the DM's face when his monsters' battle plan falls to peices because of something you did.


Battles aren't always won by the flashy hero on the white horse. Most battles are won by the disciplined soldiers who hold their ground or the brilliant strategist who chooses the battles he can win, and changes the nature of other battles until they /can/ be won. In the adventuring party, the Piker is such a warrior - he may or many not stand out or seem that heroic, but he /will/ see his party win battles they would have lost without him.

While other Fighter rush headlong into battle, the Piker prefers to let enemies come to him - and to make that as hard as possible on them, into the bargain. Pikers use the terrain around them to their advantage, and choose 'reach' weapons for the advantages they give in critical moments, such as when battle is first joined, or when routed enemies try to escape.

The Piker combines the traits of Controller and Defender, being tough and melee-oriented, but able to deal with large numbers of enemies and decieve and weaken his opponents.

Class Traits
Hit Points: You start with hit points equal to 15 + your Constitution score. You gain 6 hit points each time you gain a level.
Bonus to Defenses: +2 to WILL
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + your Constitution modifier
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (INT), Bluff (CHA), Intimidate (Cha), Streetwise (Cha).
Trained Skills: History and three others from the list of class skills



PIKER HEROIC TIER
Total XP Level Feats Known Class Features and Powers
0 1 1 Sieze the High Ground
Weapon Talent
Fighter stances
Know Thine Enemy
Trip
1,000 2 +1 Utility power
2,250 3 — Disarm
3,750 4 +1 Ability score increase
5,500 5 — Spring the Trap
7,500 6 +1 Utility power
10,000 7 — Extra fighter stance
13,000 8 +1 Ability score increase
16,500 9 — From the Jaws of Defeat
20,500 10 +1 Utility power



Level 1: Know Thine Enemy - you have an encyclopedic knowledge of military history and legend. You know or can deduce the weaknesses of foes and what tactics will work best against them.

Know Thine Enemy Piker Class Feature
When you make a Knowledge Check to gain information about creatures' combat abilities, vulnerabilities, resistances, tactics, or possible motivations to fight, you can substitute a History check for the usual Religion, Arcana, Nature or Dungeneering check. When you would make an Insight roll to guess at an opponents intentions in combat, you may also substitute a History check.


Stances:


Set Spears Piker Utility
At-Will Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must be using a weapon with the Reach Attribute.
Effect: While this stance continues you have Threatening Reach. The stance ends if you hit an adjacent enemy.

Formation Fighting Piker Utility
Effect: While this stance continues, your Basic Attack becomes a burst 1 that targets enemies within the burst. The Stance ends if you have no allies adjacent to you.

Shortenned Grip: Piker Utility
You hold your spear like a quarterstaff, using the pole to block attacks and club enemies.
Requirement: You must be using a pole-arm or spear in two hands.
Effect: Until the stance ends, you have a +1 shield bonus to AC and REF, and, when you make a Melee Basic Attack against an adjacent enemy, may make a second melee basic attack against an adjacent enemy you did not hit with the first attack. The second MBA inflicts [1d6] damage in place of the weapon's normal [W] damage.



Level 1: Trip - you snag an enemy with a projection on your weapon and drag him off his feet.

Trip Piker utility
Encounter Martial, Weapon
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You hit an enemy with a melee basic attack.
Target: The enemy you hit
Effect: The target is knocked prone.


Level 1: Sieze the High Ground - you position yourself idealy for the coming battle.

Sieze the High Ground Piker Utility
Daily * Martial, Zone
Move Close Burst 2
Effect: Sift up to your speed. The square where you end this movement is the center of a Burst 2 Zone that you can use to your tactical advantage. When in this zone, you gain a +1 to all attacks and defenses and can slide an enemy you hit with a basic attack your INT mod once per turn. If you and an ally are both in the zone and both threaten an enemy, you gain combat advantage against that enemy.
Your allies also gain a +1 to attacks and defenses when in the zone.
Sustain: Minor. The Zone persists.

 

[Camelot]

The Essential Fighter can be a Defender (Knight) or Striker (Slayer). Why not a Controller?

:drumroll:



Piker

etc.

I extremely agree with this, at least the idea. This is exactly what a martial controller should be: a fighter with reach and tweaked features. Plus, I think they need to make some fighter builds that use Intelligence and Charisma anyway.

Speaking of a fighter using Charisma, there's another martial controller right there (though some may sarcastically categorize a "fighter who yells at monsters a lot" as not a good concept). Makes attacks, and when they hit, scares the enemy into moving or into becoming immobilized or such. Also can use the opposite of fear; the fighter bluffs and makes him or herself seem weaker, drawing the enemy into a false sense of security before the fighter strikes!

There does not need to be a whole new martial controller class. They just need to do some greater than usual adjustments to an existing one; essentials would be the perfect opportunity.

I'd give you XP, Tony, but I've given too much today. =P Darn generosity.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I extremely agree with this, at least the idea. ....

Speaking of a fighter using Charisma, there's another martial controller right there (though some may sarcastically categorize a "fighter who yells at monsters a lot" as not a good concept). Makes attacks, and when they hit, scares the enemy into moving or into becoming immobilized or such.

Thanks. BTW, there's a pretty good take on the kind of Martial Controller you mention over in the WotC groups:

The Dreadnaught


One of the few things about Essentials that doesn't just horrify me is that they've opened the door on classes have different roles. There's a lot of potential, there.

 

[Gradine]

For a long time I was in the "We really don't need a Martial Controller" camp. Then I ended up toying around with the idea of creating a Martial Controller of my own because the power source and role really neatly fit in with a rather important archetype within one of my campaign settings. Of course, creating an entire class (with accompanying features, powers, feats and paragon paths) is a lot of stonking work. I gave up after concluding that there simply wasn't enough to concept to the support an entire freakin' class.

Then Dark Sun introduced the idea of themes, which makes the whole process tidy and much less painless. Bonus points for the archetype in question essentially filling a similar (though a tad less Card Carrying Villain-esque) role as Templars do on Athas.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then I ended up toying around with the idea of creating a Martial Controller of my own because the power source and role really neatly fit in with a rather important archetype within one of my campaign settings. Of course, creating an entire class (with accompanying features, powers, feats and paragon paths) is a lot of stonking work. I gave up after concluding that there simply wasn't enough to concept to the support an entire freakin' class.

Coming up with a complete 4e class is an overwhelming challenge. Out of curiosity, what was the concept?

 

[Shin Okada]

Like the essential slayer fighter, we could have, say, controller archer ranger or something like that.

I wish WotC made Seeker as a martial controller instead of primal controller, and made it better (AFAIK this class desperately need some bump up in Primal Power). As we already had Druid as a primal controller, it could be a better choice.

 

[Gradine]

Coming up with a complete 4e class is an overwhelming challenge. Out of curiosity, what was the concept?

It was a city campaign, archetype involved the city's agents and secret police and the like; it was half single-target whip & net movement (and eventually action) denial, half Bat-utility-belt-esque gadgets for frustrating larger groups. High mobility, lots of skills. Was toying with a swap-a-utility-power-for-a-skill-power-on-rest class feature similar to the Wizard's spellbook; this was about the time I called it a night.

I had built full classes before (a Psion which was largely, unfortunately a re-flavored Wizard clone; and a Psychic Warrior which I thought was better but don't think I ever finished), but I had tons of source material to dig through for ideas; it's a lot harder when you're building the entire concept from the ground up.

Themes seem easy enough to build even if you go the whole nine yards, and seem like the perfect way for players and DMs to really nail down their character concepts if 4e's base stuff doesn't quite give 'em what they need (such as, say, a martial controller). Also great (as mentioned) for helping DMs introduce campaign-specific archetypes to their players, which is how Dark Sun uses them.