Martial Dailies - How so?

Remathilis said:
How's that?

Your explanation seems rather solid. I think it works for me: it doesn't rely on the situation specifically, it is a decision made by the player that can be reflected by the character's in-game actions, does not require ret-conning of the situation at hand, and it gives a reasonable account for why the power cannot be used more often.

Yep, sounds pretty good to me. Thanks!
 

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GnomeWorks said:
Anybody got any ideas?
Yes.

4e isn't a simulation of the real world, it's a simulation of action stories. Protagonists in action stories frequently display superhuman abilities when in a clinch, like when Ivan Drago is about to deliver the knockout blow, or the terrorists holding the Nakamura Tower hostage have forced them to jump through yet-another plate glass window ahead of yet-another hail of automatic weapons fire. To be clear, they periodically display abilities above and beyond their run-on-the-mill extraordinary competencies. While 'once-a-day' may not be a precise measure of the frequency of the manifestation of these abilities, in most cases it's acceptable to use an average.

On a related note, it's hard to grade of the accuracy of a simulation until you correctly identify what's being simulated.

Does that help?
 

GnomeWorks said:
I am aware that 4e is not directed at me, and I have little intention of moving to it. However, I am rather happy with several design decisions made in 4e - including the at-will/encounter/daily power paradigm - and am interested in implementing it in whatever system I devise. Before I do so, though, I would like rationalization for some of the more problematic aspects that suits the simulationist style.

Emphasis mine.

Here's the problem. That purely simulationist rationalization does not exist.

Fourth Edition draws a solid distinction between the players at the table and the characters in the game. The characters move through their lives, blissfully unaware of the game rules that govern probability. All they know is that they can only pull off this power "every once in a while." You can argue that they attempt it more often than once a day, or that they'd notice it happens once a day, but you're using a perception of things that the PCs themselves don't possess.

Tordek the fighter has no idea that he's a puppet controlled by someone playing a game. He isn't aware that the particular circumstances that allow him to use his "daily" power come up "once a day" or that they come up whenever his player decides they do. Tordek isn't the player - he's a character in the game world with no knowledge of the mechanics of the game. He might think "man, I wish I could do that more often" or "man, I wish those circumstances came up more often," but he isn't aware of consciously deciding to use the ability.

To use the Ranger example, Split the Tree is a specific stunt. Sure, Riardon knows that he can pull two arrows and load them into his bow, but giving him the ability as a daily power prevents the DM from having to track precise positioning, wind speed, and other factors in order to figure out when the conditions are just right that Riardon has a chance of pulling it off. Instead, Riardon's player gets to say when the "conditions are right."

What you seem to want is a system that decrees this happens only X% of the time. From a purely simulationist viewpoint, you'd be able to use your best ability whenever conditions were right. Short of DM fiat, or tracking a crazy number of variables, you'd rule those conditions came up, say, 5% of the time, meaning the character could pull it off, on average, about once every 20 attacks. However, that generates really "swingy" results, since if the player is lucky with the dice, the character might be able to do it every round, and if he's unlucky, he might never get the chance to use his cool power.

Another way to model this is the token system in Iron Heroes, where different "powers" cost different numbers of tokens. A refinement to that system would have provided the same thing, without the "standing around doing nothing" issues in the original IH system. IMO (and that of Mike Mearls, who designed the token system, but seems to have disregarded that idea for both the Book of Nine Swords and 4E), the added "realism" is just not worth the bookkeeping headache.

Partly it's a cinematic consideration. Shooting two opponents at once is cool if it happens infrequently. If it's happening every round, it starts to feel a bit cheesy.

The point is that Fourth Edition is not a strictly simulationist game. There's "narrativist" aspects to it, which grant players more control over the game world. If you're uncomfortable with this aspect, it's just not the game for you, and no rationalization is available that will satisfy you.

EDIT: Although I have to admit, Remathilis's "in the zone" explanation is pretty solid. It's still reflective of the player deciding when his character enters that "zone," something that real people don't usually have quite have that much control over.

For a filmed example of this, I recommend the Kevin Costner baseball flick For Love of the Game. The character pitches the game of his life just as he's contemplating retirement. He's totally "in the zone."
 
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CleverNickName said:
Except you can't simply decide when your next shot will be an "at-the-buzzer 3-pointer" attempt. Nor can you just decide when you are going to swing the club and try for an Eagle. And if you could decide when to use your Knockout Punch for the day, winning a boxing title would be as easy as winning initiative.

I know, I know...it is a game we are talking about, not real-life. I'm just trying to see it from a simulationist's POV, like the OP. And it fails. I agree with Thornir Alekeg.

Real people don't have players. It isn't the character deciding he gets an Eagle, it's the player deciding his character gets an Eagle.

Ultimately it's a pure gameplay thing. Playability trumps all other considerations, after all.
 

GnomeWorks said:
However, I think that's a bit different. You got more rages/day as you gained levels. I don't think you can double-up on daily powers, can you? I realize it's the same basic idea, but it feels different, I think, if you can eventually use it more often, even if it is daily.
Huh. Rage makes no sense, but you're okay with it. So someone can only get angry so often per day?
 

alaric said:
We only have three martial dailies to look at, but so far I don't see any problems. The fluff of Split of Tree mentions firing two arrows at the same time, but there is nothing mechanically that enforces it. It's just as easy to say that the Ranger fired two arrows in quick succession. The timing and ordering of a round is already highly abstract, all that really means in the game world is that at one point the ranger pulled off two quick shots that both landed well.

I think this is the best simulationist explanation you can get for the mechanical effect of the two arrows in one round.

Getting so in the zone so that at one point you shoot two arrows in swifter succession is much easier to accept IMO than any of the other explanations provided for knocking two arrows once a day.

Rapid Shot fluff works for this mechanic while manyshot does a poor job.

Of course though, it invalidates the description as written.
 

Mallus said:
4e isn't a simulation of the real world, it's a simulation of action stories. Protagonists in action stories frequently display superhuman abilities when in a clinch...

Nope, sorry; your explanation doesn't work for me. I find "action stories" to be trite.

JohnSnow said:
Here's the problem. That purely simulationist rationalization does not exist.

Sure it does.

I recognize that it's a game. I simply want the mechanics the players use to reflect what is going on in the game.

I recognize that there are abstractions. Tordek doesn't know he has hit points, or what armor class is - but these things do not actually exist. They are tools used by Tordek's player to represent his ability to dodge blows and resist damage and whatnot, and to represent how difficult it is to hit him.

He might think "man, I wish I could do that more often" or "man, I wish those circumstances came up more often," but he isn't aware of consciously deciding to use the ability.

That is where you and I disagree. When the player decides to do something, that is reflected by the character in the game. If Tordek's player decides to use a daily power, then Tordek is psyching himself up for it, tightening his grip on his axe, or what-have-you. The mechanics do not necessarily translate perfectly, but they should at least approximate what is going on.

The point is that Fourth Edition is not a strictly simulationist game. There's "narrativist" aspects to it, which grant players more control over the game world. If you're uncomfortable with this aspect, it's just not the game for you, and no rationalization is available that will satisfy you.

...yes. I know. I am aware that it is not the game for me. I simply want to use the at-will/encounter/daily paradigm either for 3.5 or for a homebrew system, and since I prefer the simulationist style, I want simulationist reasonings for these things before I use them.
 

I wonder, is it your characters choosing feats in your game? Why can't they choose those feats until they get enough experience, even if the experience is unrelated to the feat?

For example, if your 1st and 2nd level is spent fighting kobolds all day long until you get to level three, never disguising yourself as anything nor forging anything nor seeing any disguise or forgery in that whole time, why would that experience get you to the point where now you can suddenly disguise and forge things much better (Deceitful feat)?
 

tenken said:
Huh. Rage makes no sense, but you're okay with it. So someone can only get angry so often per day?

Thanks for missing the part where I said that, if I went back to 3.5, I would probably reconsider all martial-style daily abilities and retool them to make more sense to me.
 

A few more dailies in action

Brute Strike (fighter)

Kathra didn't realize how difficult one ogre can be! The volley of failed attacks by Corrin and the creatures resisting Skamos' sleep spell had only made things worse. Now, the ogre beat down on her. Muttering a brief prayer to Moradin, Kathra swung her axe. It barely missed, but with a surge of equal parts adreniline and frustration, she spun the blade around and collided with the ogre, sending the creature down to one knee. Kathra perhaps was equally winded, but she wasn't going to let the ogre see that...

Crimson Edge (rogue)

Varis was in deep, but he hadn't learned that yet. The third level of the Ancient Temple had been quiet. Too quiet. What he didn't yet know is the reason for the silence: mind flayers don't need to speak to set an ambush. And when the far-realm spawn struck, Varis knew he was in trouble. He tumbled to avoid the creatures flailing tendrils, only to arise face to face with the other. As tendrils wrapped around his skull, his thoughts turned first to panic, then defiance. "You want my brain? Come and claim it!" and the flayer's eyes widened as Varis's slender dagger had punctured his ribs. "Good thing I carry a spare" the elf said, drawing another dagger and turning to the other ithillid.

Iron Dragon Charge (warlord)

Keldorn had seen a lot of chaotic battles, but these drow were merciless. Worse yet was the priestess, who insisted on using her unholy power to blast him and his allies. As Keldorn put yet another drow to the sword, he surveyed his surroundings. The cavern was narrow. The walls were rough, but even. Low ceiling, smooth ground. Then, he recalled as if by province the tale of Oligard Hammersmith; the famous general of the battle of Turin Baeloth, and his cascading charge along the sides of a narrow chasm: three spires like a trident. Almost like the conditions here... It, just, might, work!. "On my command," Keldorn yelled, "we commit a three column charge. The target is the priestess! Do not fail. GO!"
 

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