Martial Dailies - How so?

[JohnSnow]

I think this is the best simulationist explanation you can get for the mechanical effect of the two arrows in one round.

Getting so in the zone so that at one point you shoot two arrows in swifter succession is much easier to accept IMO than any of the other explanations provided for knocking two arrows once a day.

Rapid Shot fluff works for this mechanic while manyshot does a poor job.

Of course though, it invalidates the description as written.

Well, the problem is that Split the Tree has a restriction that doesn't apply as well if we're talking about a Rapid Shot situation. With rapid shot, you should be able to fire both arrows at a single target. Split the Tree requires you to target two different targets.

I suspect Rapid Shot will be a power (or feat) that increases the damage output on a single attack, like in SWSE.

Split the Tree, by contrast, is about actually being able to fire accurately at two targets simultaneously. I've tried the manyshot trick with my bow. Firstly, the arrows tend to hit with less force, because the propelling force is split between them. Additionally, the arrows "part" to a certain degree (but only to a certain degree) in flight.

To say the proper configuration of opponents for this would arise infrequently in a combat situation is probably putting it mildly.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I wonder, is it your characters choosing feats in your game? Why can't they choose those feats until they get enough experience, even if the experience is unrelated to the feat?

For example, if your 1st and 2nd level is spent fighting kobolds all day long until you get to level three, never disguising yourself as anything nor forging anything nor seeing any disguise or forgery in that whole time, why would that experience get you to the point where now you can suddenly disguise and forge things much better (Deceitful feat)?

I would presume that players would have some sort of reasoning for selections of this sort; I would hope that they take feats or similar other abilities that "make sense."

I am aware of the disconnect between the method by which experience is gained in 3.5 and 4e, and what you can do with that experience. The system I am working on is trying to move away from gaining XP only from killing things or disarming traps, so that there is some correlation between what you do and how you improve (ie, if you're a crafting kind of guy, you would gain xp by crafting things). It won't be perfect, of course, but it'll hopefully be more sensical.

 

[Mallus]

Nope, sorry; your explanation doesn't work for me.

I can lead a horse to the obvious, but I can't make it drink... the obvious. Hmmm, that came out clumsier than I intended.

I find "action stories" to be trite.

Then why are you playing D&D?

And can I interest you in a play-by-post campaign of Jane Austen: d20 or perhaps Italo Calvino: d20 ("You have just begun an adventure called If On a Winter's Night A Ravenloft".)

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Most of what I'm going to say has been said before, but here goes:

As a matial artist (look! there's the word 'martial'!) I've found that just because you know a few good moves it doesn't mean you can do them over and over again every "round" - To attempt the wrong one at the wrong time will cause you to lose. Heck, to attempt the same move over and over would show your opponent how to beat you.

So, yes, it's a combination of timing, luck, skill, and opportunity. Also, just because the opportunity comes up, and you take the chance, doesn't mean you will instantly succeed. Heck, FAILING might be enough to get you to not try that move again, or the opportunity might not come up again.

The two arrow thing is kinda silly in the first place, but it's pretty simple to say that the archer is competent enough to know when to use that special trick and when not to. He can still make mistakes, so he can still miss.

You DO have to get over the idea that EVERYTHING your player choses to do, your character consciously thinks about. It can happen most of the time, but it doesn't always have to be true.

Anyway, that's my two bits.

Fitz

 

[Voadam]

The point is that Fourth Edition is not a strictly simulationist game. There's "narrativist" aspects to it, which grant players more control over the game world. If you're uncomfortable with this aspect, it's just not the game for you, and no rationalization is available that will satisfy you.

I disagree that narrativism is the problem. Simulationism is not incompatible with players having some narrative control. The problem is simply the disconnect of the fluff and the mechanic chosen.

Some work well together some don't.

I too like the zone analogy and I have no problems with martial characters 1/day getting into the zone to attack swifter, more accurately, or causing more damage. That jibes well with a sense of ebb and flow of physical encounters.

1/day knocking two arrows instead of one seems more of a stretch. Outside conditions being just right seems like a weak explanation when the PC describes the scene narratively.

With magic powers the explanations for why things happen are partially built in. Narrativism does not need to come into the picture to explain 1/day abilities. For nonmagical ones it takes some more work.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I can lead a horse to the obvious, but I can't make it drink... the obvious. Hmmm, that came out clumsier than I intended.

Yes... yes it did.

Then why are you playing D&D?

Because my homebrew system isn't done yet.

 

[GnomeWorks]

You DO have to get over the idea that EVERYTHING your player choses to do, your character consciously thinks about. It can happen most of the time, but it doesn't always have to be true.

No, I don't. You disagree with my playstyle, and that's fine. Please don't tell me what I should or should not do.

 

[Voadam]

Well, the problem is that Split the Tree has a restriction that doesn't apply as well if we're talking about a Rapid Shot situation. With rapid shot, you should be able to fire both arrows at a single target. Split the Tree requires you to target two different targets.

I suspect Rapid Shot will be a power (or feat) that increases the damage output on a single attack, like in SWSE.

Split the Tree, by contrast, is about actually being able to fire accurately at two targets simultaneously. I've tried the manyshot trick with my bow. Firstly, the arrows tend to hit with less force, because the propelling force is split between them. Additionally, the arrows "part" to a certain degree (but only to a certain degree) in flight.

To say the proper configuration of opponents for this would arise infrequently in a combat situation is probably putting it mildly.

It is a little bit of a sticking point, but it still feels closer to a "one, two" shooting situation to me rather than a split manyshot.

Of course that could be because I come from a bird hunting background and shooting in rapid succession with a shotgun at two birds that flushed at the same time is something I've done, while I've never tried to shoot at a single opponent with a bow multiple times or try a twinning the tree type bow shot.

 

[The_Fan]

It's more than just nocking two arrows. It's nocking two arrows and having them go in different directions! Physics just threw up its hands.

The martial powersource has been described as "not entirely nonmagical." It's merely MOSTLY nonmagic. In this case, I'd say you're definately using some minor degree of "magic" to make it work. That magic is powered by your skill with the bow, but you're still using magic. You're altering reality with your muscles instead of your mind! Needless to say, this isn't easy, and you can only tap into that sort of thing once per day.

That's how I see it, you may see it otherwise.

 

[GnomeWorks]

It's more than just nocking two arrows. It's nocking two arrows and having them go in different directions! Physics just threw up its hands.

The effect of the power itelf is also somewhat ridiculous, I'll grant that. It could be easily houseruled to say "both targets must be in front of you" or similar, but that's not my main question here - it's the restrictions on how often you can use it.

The martial powersource has been described as "not entirely nonmagical." It's merely MOSTLY nonmagic. In this case, I'd say you're definately using some minor degree of "magic" to make it work. That magic is powered by your skill with the bow, but you're still using magic. You're altering reality with your muscles instead of your mind! Needless to say, this isn't easy, and you can only tap into that sort of thing once per day.

Sorry, I don't buy the "martial-is-sorta-magical" argument. When I envision the martial "power source," I see that as sheer skill and awesomeness. No magic, no mojo, no wuxia.