Martial Dailies - How so?

[Hypersmurf]

IMO, a character's abilities should not give the character the ability to dictate terrain or NPC behavior.

The character's abilities don't. The metaphysical luck expended by the player as a metagame action does.

The character's ability is to take advantage of the situation created by that metaphysical luck.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Actually, that is EXACTLY why they used their once-a-day powers in those situations, because they knew they needed to as opposed to using them on ever single last bad guy that came their way.
If there were 2 gods to kill, I'm sure a second once only power would have been used.
The problem I think you're having is you can't quite see this game as the STORY its supposed to be. The reason you can't do your "Super special awesome mega attack" to every single bad guy is because it's supposed to be climatic. It could be the first blow of the round to do the most damage, or the last move you use to finish them off, but its still your climatic move that sets the scene. Otherwise People would be making Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick Jokes about you and your character.

But why is the story supposed to have 1 and only 1 climax?

And by the way, you don't just have one anyway! You have MANY daily abilities, because you are not alone in the party, there's other PC's dailies too. Maybe you even have more dailies yourself as you go up in level (not sure yet).

[edit: I think we're past the point of the discussion, we were supposed to propose and discuss some in-game interpretation of martial dailies...]

 

[Li Shenron]

I think I understand more why someone like Psion, is disappointed by 4e. With the attempts at explaining things taken that far already, everyone is making an effort to serve the rules, rather than let the rule serve ourselves...

 

[robertliguori]

The character's abilities don't. The metaphysical luck expended by the player as a metagame action does.

The character's ability is to take advantage of the situation created by that metaphysical luck.

-Hyp.

What are the actual dictating factors for the putative ability again? Strictly terrain and behavior? So, if you can nail down a specific set of terrain and behavior with that luck point, then replicate that terrain and behavior externally, can you use your ability consistently?

Hell, why not just go whole hog if you're going to use luck points?

"Splitting the Tree is not natural. It's a preternaturally powerful, preternaturally accurate shot, under conditions that shouldn't work, but do. It's like draconic flight or giantish skeletal systems. Because you have this ability, you are partaking of something that doesn't exist in our world (namely, the martial power source), which allows you to do things that we can't do in our world. However, these actions also have restrictions that we don't have in our world."

Basically, if you're taking a simulationist tack to 4E, then accept that 4E does not support martial power as skill, training, or talent; it is as unnatural as turning undead with a holy symbol or burning them with eldritch fire.

If it doesn't look like a duck, or quack like a duck, it's probably not a duck. None of the crunch of the martial power source indicates that it is actually meant to represent the results of real-world practice and training; therefore, I advise stop assuming that it's supposed to.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

I don't care what WotC, TSR, or anyone else says in regards to how I should view the game. I will play and interpret the game as I choose.

Alright, no worries about that. Maybe you should choose to accept once a day martial powers then?
By your own arguement nothing anyone can say will bring you closer to believing them, its all you choosing not to accept it thats stopping it from making sence to you and you alone.

Play your game however you want. You can't believe in once a day martial abilities? Oh well thats your problem. It makes sence to an entire multi-million dollar company, I'm going to go with the people who are probably smarter than all of us here.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What are the actual dictating factors for the putative ability again? Strictly terrain and behavior? So, if you can nail down a specific set of terrain and behavior with that luck point, then replicate that terrain and behavior externally, can you use your ability consistently?

I'm saying people occupy a 5 foot square, and two opponents occupy two 5 foot squares, and it's easy to replicate the situation where those two opponents are in a particular two 5 foot squares.

But I'm also saying that what the battlemat doesn't show is what position within those squares the opponents have assumed, and what direction within that square they're moving, and so forth.

Splitting the Tree requires detail at a finer resolution than 5 foot squares, and the only way to manipulate the situation at that resolution is to activate the Splitting the Tree daily power. If the Splitting the Tree daily power is not activated, then the position of the opponents will not be appropriate for the use of Splitting the Tree. If the Splitting the Tree daily power is activated, then the position of the opponents will be appropriate for the use of Splitting the Tree.

It's not feasible within the fluid and unchoreographed environment of a combat for the ranger to impose those circumstances; it's only feasible for him to recognise those circumstances when they occur. And they occur when the player says "Daily Power - Splitting the Tree!"

-Hyp.

 

[VannATLC]

I disagree. 3.5's economic system is utterly ridiculous - surely a more sensical one could be devised. I'm not looking for perfection, here, merely something that seems a bit less ridiculous.

Damn Straight.

Whole system made me mad.
Basic economics is not something open to change. Supply/Demand is actually an unalterable rule.

3e "economics" /spit was utterly, utterly broken.

"Splitting the Tree is not natural. It's a preternaturally powerful, preternaturally accurate shot, under conditions that shouldn't work, but do. It's like draconic flight or giantish skeletal systems. Because you have this ability, you are partaking of something that doesn't exist in our world (namely, the martial power source), which allows you to do things that we can't do in our world. However, these actions also have restrictions that we don't have in our world."

Basically, if you're taking a simulationist tack to 4E, then accept that 4E does not support martial power as skill, training, or talent; it is as unnatural as turning undead with a holy symbol or burning them with eldritch fire.

If it doesn't look like a duck, or quack like a duck, it's probably not a duck. None of the crunch of the martial power source indicates that it is actually meant to represent the results of real-world practice and training; therefore, I advise stop assuming that it's supposed to.

Also, well said.

Martial IS a power source. Its not reflective of training/skill alone. It is reflective of an individual tapping a powersource that is unavailable to others, through whatever means they have chosen to.

It is *exactly* the same as the limitations that prevent a wizard from casting Sleep more than once a day.

 

[Xyl]

My humorous summary of the thread so far...

What's something green?

A herring.

Okay, something that's green and hangs on a wall.

Still a herring.

It has to whistle too! What's green, hangs on a wall, and whistles?

You're just saying that so the answer won't be too obvious.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Frankly, I don't think you'll be able to find an answer here. This topic has gone through 7 pages and about 200 posts and there hasn't been an answer that satisfied you yet Gnomeworks.

Perhaps you should try looking else where?

You could try other gaming message boards like rpg.net, Paizo, WOTC, Necromancer, Goodman Games, gamefaqs.com, etc. Different people go to different boards so you might find something there.

Yahoo answers might also be worth trying. The History Channel's website may also be worth it.

But honestly, I think the only real way you're going to find an answer is to find a historian who studied midevil/ancient melee combat and talk with that person.

Try going to websites/places that sell actual melee weapons. Maybe they can point you in the right direction.

 

[VannATLC]

Well, no, that's not going to give him an answer.

Daily martial mechanics, if you wish to remove the idea of them being dependant on somesort of finite resource, are purely narrativist in form.

Gnomeworks doesn't want narrativist play.

The simple answer, then, is that 4e Dnd caters to the Gamist/Narrativist more than the Simulationist.

Its still mostly play style.. but somethings are obviously gamist, others are obviously narrativist, and very little is simulationist for the sake of being simulationist.