Martial Power Preview

[Cadfan]

But looking at the other PPs around, why exactly is the polearm master not worth its own PP?

I mean, many PPs (if not most) at this time are essentially "fighting style /weapon specialisations" as well. For example, any rogue would like to get the daggermasters abilities just over feats. Why is the polearm master different?

Its not that there shouldn't be a polearm master. Its that this particular polearm master grants many powers and abilities that seem like they should be available earlier.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

There is nothing broken about allowing this at level 1. It doesn't suddenly give you huge amounts of control, or a 25 space interdiction area, because it only works against a target you just attacked. It messes up one guy. With encounter powers, maybe two, for one round.

Exactly. Even if you do mark to different targets, since you only get one immediate action per turn you can only attack one of them from combat challenge.
The attack granted by combat challenge is an immediate action.
It is my opinion that the combat challenge attack should be allowed as long as the target is within your reach.

 

[DracoSuave]

Exactly. Even if you do mark to different targets, since you only get one immediate action per turn you can only attack one of them from combat challenge.
The attack granted by combat challenge is an immediate action.
It is my opinion that the combat challenge attack should be allowed as long as the target is within your reach.

But the ability to attack an enemy from reach off-turn is a paragon-tier ability. That's when you can get OAs to do it (for a hefty price). On the list of powerlevels for fighter tricks, the Combat Challenge attack is below OA. OA is their more powerful trick, and Combat Challenge is less powerful but can be used with OAs cannot.

Therefore, you shouldn't get CCs at reach until after you get OAs at reach.

Therefore, paragon tier.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

But the ability to attack an enemy from reach off-turn is a paragon-tier ability. That's when you can get OAs to do it (for a hefty price). On the list of powerlevels for fighter tricks, the Combat Challenge attack is below OA. OA is their more powerful trick, and Combat Challenge is less powerful but can be used with OAs cannot.

Therefore, you shouldn't get CCs at reach until after you get OAs at reach.

Therefore, paragon tier.

If comabat challenge is weaker than OA.
and
If OAs at reach are a paragon tier level power.

Then it follows that combat challenge at reach is less than paragon tier.

Edit: Misunderstood some of your typing.

Attacking off turn with reach is much worse than attacking off turn at range which some classes can do in the heroic tier. The difference between an OA and these attacks are you get 1 OA a turn, you only get 1 immediate action per round. So OAs at reach allow more attacks.

 

[Cadfan]

But the ability to attack an enemy from reach off-turn is a paragon-tier ability. That's when you can get OAs to do it (for a hefty price). On the list of powerlevels for fighter tricks, the Combat Challenge attack is below OA. OA is their more powerful trick, and Combat Challenge is less powerful but can be used with OAs cannot.

Therefore, you shouldn't get CCs at reach until after you get OAs at reach.

Therefore, paragon tier.

That doesn't make any sense.

The reason that OAs at reach is a dangerous power that's being restricted to the paragon tier is because OAs affect every single enemy within 2 spaces of you when you can take OAs with a reach weapon. That's a 5x5 square on the battlefield where every single enemy inside of it cannot use move actions, or else they'll take a fighter's basic attack, at a bonus to the attack roll equal to his wisdom modifier, and with an additional penalty of having their move negated if they're hit.

When you take a Combat Challenge extra attack at range, all you do is hit a dude. It only affects someone you attacked in the previous turn, so just one enemy at most.

Its way less game breaking to have one enemy, struck at a range of one space, restricted from being able to shift or attack enemies without getting struck.

I'm ok with it costing a feat or something, that's fine by me. I just don't think it should wait all the way until level 16.

 

[WalterKovacs]

One note on combat challenge at reach.

Polearm fighter stands behind character x [using the party I DM for, the highly intelligent, heavy shield and hide wearing warlord whose AC is much better than the fighter, even without factoring in he mark]. In front of the Warlord is the marked foe.

Now the foe can:

move to get to the fighter and attack him, provoking from the warlord
make a ranged attack against the fighter, provoking from the warlord
he can attack the warlord, invoking the fighter's challenge
he can shift to get get to the fighter, invoking the fighter's challenge

So unless he has a close blast power that can target the fighter [who has cover thanks to the warlord] he doesn't have many choices for attacks that don't result in him getting hit. The paladin's divine challenge was changed to avoid situations where you mark a guy and he has to take damage [or in this case an attack] no matter who he tries to attack.

From our games, the "mark the guy and use ally as cover" trick is a trade off, you lose the interupt option, but you get to give both characters +2 to their defences, in a way.

You can do more OAs per round, but the conditions for combat challenge are much easier to pull off, and thus will come up more often [or restrict the opponent's actions further].