D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[shadowoflameth]

One of the best suggestions I have is to do what 4E did with rituals: put ritual casting up as a feat and let anyone who takes that feat cast rituals from one spell tradition. Let them have a ritual book to put them in.

A non-caster can take the Ritual Caster feat in 5E. IMHO more higher level rituals would be beneficial. The higher level 'need' for a caster is to some extent inherent in a magical setting. bad guys can do spells and if the heroes can't they are at a disadvantage. Perhaps there should be more ways to break concentration or end a spell? or in the example, if a party of all martials finds the key behind a force wall, then either an alternative way to get it, or something prepared to happen in the event that they can't. DMs should not make one solution choke points in their stories anyway.

 

[Emberashh]

People who just plain don't like dodgily motivated misinformation being spread?

Then Id find a more appropriate venue to air that grievance.

A non-caster can take the Ritual Caster feat in 5E. IMHO more higher level rituals would be beneficial. The higher level 'need' for a caster is to some extent inherent in a magical setting. bad guys can do spells and if the heroes can't they are at a disadvantage. Perhaps there should be more ways to break concentration or end a spell? or in the example, if a party of all martials finds the key behind a force wall, then either an alternative way to get it, or something prepared to happen in the event that they can't. DMs should not make one solution choke points in their stories anyway.

Rituals are a bit of a shaky mechanic given their only balancing is through a system (timekeeping) that basically doesn't exist at a mechanical level.

 

[shadowoflameth]

It also occurs to me that if a non-caster had a high Arcana skill, perhaps it could be possible for him to know some way to stop an unattended ongoing spell effect.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think it's telling how much of this discussion is about actual superheroes, because that seems to be the split: some folks want martial classes (or just fighters) to in effect have super powers ("jump mountains!") and others don't. It's probably not reconcilable.

Hercules and the Odyssey both predate genre, though today we would classify them as "mythology." Hercules was an actual demigod; his father was Zeus. Odysseus was not, though he did have some divine blood (as did many of the Ancient Greek heroes).

We end up talking about super heroes, anime and mythology because nothing else fits the power level we find in high level DnD.

We have clerics capable of erecting a temple from nothing by air, who can then shroud themselves in the will of their god to guard them against death, summon at least one angelic defender, and then charge into battle by unleashing their own personal wildfire. And they will fight an evil primordial dragon who can peer through dimensions and connect with their shattered multiversal self in a bid to gain power even gods fear, while commanding a shard of ice created at the birth of reality to create a storm that will freeze the universe into perfect icy stillness.

This isn't a story about one man, a steel sword, and blood in the sand. The scales involved are just too big for that. And the only stories and mediums we have that reliably touch on that sort of scale... are superheroes. Anime protagonists. Mythology.

 

[Krachek]

not really, I have 4 fighters I have made in the last year. I have played 0 of them. I love fighters, I WANT to play fighters, I just need a campaign where no one is going to be a baldesinger or hexblade or warcleric and where the DM will give me the abality to do cool things with stat/skill checks

I guess that you need more to play the most valuable character of the party.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That is sad. In DnD Fighter like character, can safely have no fear to die and charge into fight against all odds.

You are completely missing the point I was making.

I'm not saying DnD fighters don't charge in, of course they do, their one value is getting hit so the casters don't. My point was that the archetype of the mundane person who relies on their supernatural friends, while a fine story archetype, doesn't work in DnD the same way that the archetype of the bumbling coward doesn't work.

Many stories have the bumbling coward who is the comic relief character, who runs away and hides when the fighting starts, but accidentally finds an important clue and eventually gets a single heroic moment of redemption where they do something helpful... but that cannot work at a DnD table. A player who runs away from more than one fight to have their character cower in the corner annoys everyone REAL quick.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A non-caster can take the Ritual Caster feat in 5E. IMHO more higher level rituals would be beneficial. The higher level 'need' for a caster is to some extent inherent in a magical setting. bad guys can do spells and if the heroes can't they are at a disadvantage. Perhaps there should be more ways to break concentration or end a spell? or in the example, if a party of all martials finds the key behind a force wall, then either an alternative way to get it, or something prepared to happen in the event that they can't. DMs should not make one solution choke points in their stories anyway.

I have no problem with expanding ritual magic in DnD. I also agree that one solution choke points are bad.

But let us not pretend about what we are talking about here. If the solution is expanding ritual magic, then the solution is to give non-magical characters magic. If the alternative solution to a force wall is to find a magical item to break it, the solution is giving non-magical characters magic. And that may very well be the solution... but let us not pretend it isn't just acknowledging that the only thing that really makes an impact on the game is magic.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Lets skip the rigmarole and get to the part where we recognize that people referring to anime in general, when saying they want things "from anime", isn't an egregious offense that needs to be litigated by rigidly defining what that means else the argument that people aren't universally attracted to things "from anime" be made invalidated.

Not all fantasy ever written in in a particular genre, medium, or whatever is assumed to be included when we refer to them so to try and make this argument that referring to anime in general implies all anime ever produced is just ridiculous.

We all know what people are talking about when we talk about whether or not things "from anime" should be a part of the game. This useless argument to try and weasel out from acknowledging that needs to be dropped yesterday.

So yes its a side argument. But it's also one pretty easily resolved with appropriate terminology by actually describing a genre of anime rather than lumping it all together as if it only has one kind of story to tell.

We don't refer to a 'comic book' genre, a 'TV' genre, or a 'movie' genre. We don't do this because we recognize that diverse content flows through those media. Instead we say "sci-fi", "thriller", "fantasy", "superhero", etc..

So here, it's actually pretty simple. The actual genre you are likely looking for is "shounen anime", though you might be able to get a little more specific if you wanted.

Using this instead will help people actually know what you are talking about, and shield you from accusations that you are categorizing a whole medium as a single kind of content because of its place of origin.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I guess that you need more to play the most valuable character of the party.

The point is that every character should be the most valuable character in the party, not just the wizard.

 

[Emberashh]

We don't refer to a 'comic book' genre

Intentionally pedantic but we do say that. Comic book movies.

The actual genre you are likely looking for is "shounen anime".

And thats fine. We can just clarify that as easy as that one sentence and move along.

The point is that every character should be the most valuable character in the party, not just the wizard.

Ive said this before but that has just as much to do, if not more so, with giving the party enough to do that don't all overlap with each other.

The classic puzzle where one person has to stand on a spot and a second person stands on another is a simple example of that, and you don't need to add any abilities to either player to make them both equal.