D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[CreamCloud0]

Heh, as a veteran of the psionic debates, I have to emphasize ...

"
A magic is a magic is a magic.
Lovely the power of the
Impossiblest of the impossiblest puissance.

"


4e spoke plainly about "Martial magic". I feel this is the most useful approach, to characterize the different flavors magic and eschew debates about "nonmagic" or what defines "magic".

At the highest tiers, Fighters shift from a low magic fantasy genre to a high magic genre, and are necessarily more like superheroes than soldiers or streetfighters.

my point was more that to the person i was responding to that 'magic' is a specific phenomena in DND with specific connotations attached to it, and using 'magical' as a catch-all term for all beyond realworld 'mundane' power not distingishing between the specific force called 'Magic' and 'the fantastical/martial magic' causes confusion between people who read 'magical' with different connotations.

i have no issues with the martial power source/martial magic as far as i vaguely understand it because it let you do the fantastical feats in the game in a way that thematically felt like the heroes who were victorious against monsters and evil sorcerers with naught but a sword and sometimes not even that, rather than the 'wizard who uses sword magics'.

 

[Emberashh]

Not really.

Are you talking about DBZ or Komi Can't Communicate.

Unless the difference is 'From Japan and animated'.

Lets skip the rigmarole and get to the part where we recognize that people referring to anime in general, when saying they want things "from anime", isn't an egregious offense that needs to be litigated by rigidly defining what that means else the argument that people aren't universally attracted to things "from anime" be made invalidated.

Not all fantasy ever written in in a particular genre, medium, or whatever is assumed to be included when we refer to them so to try and make this argument that referring to anime in general implies all anime ever produced is just ridiculous.

We all know what people are talking about when we talk about whether or not things "from anime" should be a part of the game. This useless argument to try and weasel out from acknowledging that needs to be dropped yesterday.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ennhh. You can create additional justifications for fantastical powers if you want, but ultimately what makes the subclass more or less fantastic is the stuff that you say it can do. Give the "dude with a sword" fantastic things to do, and they become fantastic.

Note: in many/most cases our "dude with a sword" isn't even human; they're 250 year-old descendants from fey, 190 year old poison-resistant miners who see in the dark, big green bros who instinctively avoid death, deadly toddler-sized creatures favored by gods of luck and treasure, angel-babies, hell-babies, robots and more. The "dude with a sword" thing people like to go with ignores how different most D&D characters are from earth baseline before you even start talking about class features.

In fact, I'd ask folks to do this..any time you think to yourself..

"They're just a dude with a sword. Of course they can't ..x".

Replace 'dude' with..

• "250 year-old sleepless descendant of the fey" or
• "Deadly toddler-sized creature favored by gods of luck and treasure"
• "Freaking robot" or
• One of the other descriptions above
• and check how confident you still are in their inability to perform the task described.

(And this is before we even start talking about any of the other bat guano stuff that is also taking place in D&D settings)

Yeah, I think you are hitting something kind of key. We don't need to abandon the idea that the fighter is mundane.

We need to abandon the idea that the humans of DnD are mundane. Maybe the majority of them are, but they live in a fantastical world, they are likely fantastical themselves, when they decide to apply themselves and dedicate themselves to a cause.

 

[Vaalingrade]

We all know what people are talking about when we talk about whether or not things "from anime" should be a part of the game.

We all know the inferences they're trying to make and we shouldn't be encouraging them to continue to spread misconceptions just because some find it a useful shorthand for disparagement.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Over the last ten years I play and see play 5ed fighters and even Champion by experienced players and they got a lot a fun with it.
Fighter is not only for newbie that need a simpler class to begin the game.

I didn't say it was only for newbies. I'm saying that's what everyone defaults to. The first time in a discussion on the fighter weapon masteries came up, there was concern of giving it too many options and making it unfriendly to newcomers.

Sure, I'm very aware that there are some highly experienced players who like having no options so they can turn their brains off and just make attack rolls. But I doubt there is a massive wave of veterans like that using DnD Beyond. And I'm not saying it is only newbies using the fighter. But those selection pressures exist, and they help explain why the disconnect between fighter satisfaction and fighter player numbers might exist.

The mundane guy is a valid role in any fantasy. The mundane guy can have goals and motivations and even if he rely often on the “magical” solutions offered by his friends and items, that don’t make his presence around the table less important. DnD is not only about solving problems, being effective, it’s also about taking the life of a fantasy character, and the mundane guy is one of them.

The role the "mundane one" usually plays in stories is the heart. And I can sympathize with wanting to play that. But while a story of a man who relies on his friends but offers them emotional support in return can work... it doesn't work at the table. Just like the story of the coward who runs from battle can work in a story, because he can show his bravery later and redeem himself... but it doesn't work at the table where one of the players consistently chooses to hang back and not risk getting hurt.

And, frankly, if giving them magical items actually fixed the problem, if people were happy with "the only things special about me are my sunny disposition and that magical sword I found" then there wouldn't have been this constant conversation for the last thirty years (At least) about how to fix the problem. I don't mind having more classes that start mundane, but by 11th level, you have left mundanity behind. You just have to, to face the types of high level threats that exist in equal brotherhood with your party.

 

[Emberashh]

We all know the inferences they're trying to make and we shouldn't be encouraging them to continue to spread misconceptions just because some find it a useful shorthand for disparagement.

And is the "misconception" a vitally important thing to anyone that isn't invested in not acknowledging anime tropes may not actually fit in the game, despite their wishes otherwise?

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

We all know the inferences they're trying to make and we shouldn't be encouraging them to continue to spread misconceptions just because some find it a useful shorthand for disparagement.

gambling anime is related to card game anime
monster summoning anime is it's own thing separate from that

what is yugioh? it's a mix of the two with Lovecraftian horror and Egyptian (ffaux) mythology mixed in

How is any of that related to ghost in the shell?

Ninja Scroll most likely has more in common with ghost in the shell then yugioh.

And Avatar the last Airbender and Avatar the legend of Kora are 100% not anime... but some how is like a mix of all the others.

 

[Krachek]

but it doesn't work at the table where one of the players consistently chooses to hang back and not risk getting hurt.

That is sad. In DnD Fighter like character, can safely have no fear to die and charge into fight against all odds.

 

[Emberashh]

Its worthwhile to not get bogged down in tangential side arguments that, at best, would only result in an agreemenr to disagree, and would never add anything to the actual discussion.

If we want to argue if things "from anime" are a good fit for DND, especially as it relates to Martials, thats one thing. Getting bogged down in a debate over vocabulary is just a distraction from that.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And is the "misconception" a vitally important thing to anyone that isn't invested in not acknowledging anime tropes may not actually fit in the game, despite their wishes otherwise?

People who just plain don't like dodgily motivated misinformation being spread?

Not your motivations, but the motivations behind this whole played out meme.