D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

Im starting to get reminded of those countless Kickstarter "RPGs" that only amount to half baked settings and a ruleset thats basically "make it up lol" but somehow held as a superior, elitist product compared to 5e, a system commonly criticized for its ruleset basically being "make it up, lol".

 

[Yaarel]

I still don’t get how you’re hung up on superhuman. We already used the rogue as an example of the superhuman stuff they can do without needing quantify it any more.

Why can a rogue dodge explosions? he’s a rogue.

The Rogue description supplies flavor: "you can nimbly dodge out of the way". It relates to reflexes.

Sometimes these reflexes seem "superhuman" in certain situations that seem impossible.

But there is a doublestandard. What is ok for the Rogue, is often not ok for the Fighter, in the eyes of many players. The Fighter is supposed to be strictly nonmagical. I dont agree, but many players say this, including in ENWorld forums.

Why can a fighter leap across a chasm and cleave a foe? He’s a fighter.

As of now, a Fighter cannot leap over a chasm. A chasm is say 300 meters across. A Fighter cannot leap this.

Should a Fighter be able to do so, such as emulating Hulk? Yes, of course.

As other people have said, I don’t see the line you’re drawing between what super abilities need justification and which ones don’t. All your examples seem arbitrary to me.

It seems we just have different preferences.

As a DM, I rely on narrative adjudication. That means. I describe a scene, and the players describe how their characters interact with elements within the scene. Everything is story. There is no mechanics. If the players say something, and it seems plausible that it would work, then it does. Automatically.

The only time mechanics ever happen is, the narrative may or may not work. Then dice start rolling.

So, as a DM, knowing the flavor for why something can happen, is actually more important than having the mechanics for it. At least, the flavor happens first, before any mechanics can become possible.

the 3rd level Archetypes already cover all the different fluff. I guess that’s why they’re called archetypes.

Narrative interactions that are generally possible in reallife are assumed to also be possible in the game mechanics.

But the reverse is untrue. If the players want their character to do something that is overtly impossible in reallife, there needs to be an explanation for how such a thing might make sense.

 

[Gammadoodler]

But the reverse is untrue. If the players want their character to do something that is overtly impossible in reallife, there needs to be an explanation for how such a thing might make sense.

Part of the job of the DM is to provide the players with adequate information to guide their expectations related to how things work in the setting. This can be as close to or as far from real life as a DM has the appetite to convey.

Player Characters' actions should only need explanation when the actions do not fit the setting expectations, whatever they are.

There is no essential connection to "real life", except insofar as the DM has conveyed it. (And there is quite a lot of material generally to suggest that 'real life' expectations are poorly framed)

 

[Yaarel]

Part of the job of the DM is to provide the players with adequate information to guide their expectations related to how things work in the setting.

In other words, "flavor".

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

The Rogue description supplies flavor: "you can nimbly dodge out of the way". It relates to reflexes.

Sometimes these reflexes seem "superhuman" in certain situations that seem impossible.

But there is a doublestandard. What is ok for the Rogue, is often not ok for the Fighter, in the eyes of many players. The Fighter is supposed to be strictly nonmagical. I dont agree, but many players say this, including in ENWorld forums.



As of now, a Fighter cannot leap over a chasm. A chasm is say 300 meters across. A Fighter cannot leap this.

Should a Fighter be able to do so, such as emulating Hulk? Yes, of course.



As a DM, I rely on narrative adjudication. That means. I describe a scene, and the players describe how their characters interact with elements within the scene. Everything is story. There is no mechanics. If the players say something, and it seems plausible that it would work, then it does. Automatically.

The only time mechanics ever happen is, the narrative may or may not work. Then dice start rolling.

So, as a DM, knowing the flavor for why something can happen, is actually more important than having the mechanics for it. At least, the flavor happens first, before any mechanics can become possible.




Narrative interactions that are generally possible in reallife are assumed to also be possible in the game mechanics.

But the reverse is untrue. If the players want their character to do something that is overtly impossible in reallife, there needs to be an explanation for how such a thing might make sense.

Im kind of lost at this point. I offered a suggestion for a way to have a fighter do stuff and people tried to pigeon hole that idea into an archetype instead of having it live in the same space as a rogue’s evasion and other mundane abilities. I suppose it doesn’t matter in the end since it’s just brainstorming anyways

 

[Hussar]

Heroic Determination
At level 6 your determination, focus, and grit, have made you unstoppable when you push yourself. When you fail an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw, you can choose to succeed instead. You can do so once, and regain the ability to use this ability when you complete a short rest. At level 11, 14, 17, and 20, you gain an additional use of this ability.

Sorry. Where is that from?

 

[Hussar]

However, imagine they instead just made this.

CONE ATTACK
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (15-foot cone)
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Each creature in a 15-foot cone must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 3d6 damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st.

How evocative! I literally don't have any idea what the spell does except for its mechanics. No description, no examples, just pure mechanics. Ultimate creative freedom, right?

I would give my eye teeth if DnD would do this. One attack spell per level. One defense spell. Three “effects” spells.

Complete magic system in four pages.

Yes please.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would give my eye teeth if DnD would do this. One attack spell per level. One defense spell. Three “effects” spells.

Complete magic system in four pages.

Yes please.

Aren't there games that do this already?

 

[Incenjucar]

I would give my eye teeth if DnD would do this. One attack spell per level. One defense spell. Three “effects” spells.

Complete magic system in four pages.

Yes please.

In turn creating so much more room for actually interesting spells and add-on mechanics.

 

[Yaarel]

Im kind of lost at this point. I offered a suggestion for a way to have a fighter do stuff and people tried to pigeon hole that idea into an archetype instead of having it live in the same space as a rogue’s evasion and other mundane abilities. I suppose it doesn’t matter in the end since it’s just brainstorming anyways

That is what I mean about a doublestandard between the Rogue and Fighter.

The strict nonmagicality only applies to a Fighter.

The doublestandard is an odd phenomenon. I am unsure exactly why. Part of it is, the Rogue aka Thief did have skills to interact with magic items and casting from scrolls in earlier editions.

Part of it might be a vestige from the sword-versus-sorcery genre, such as Conan from almost a century ago (1932).

Even in the dichotomy between King Arthur = nonmagic, versus Merlin = magic, Arthur is also magical in some sense. Arthurs personal wellbeing is synchronicitous the prosperity of his entire kingdom, in a way that is fateful, spiritual, and magical. Meanwhile omens and premonitions and mythic combat are normal in stories about heroes.

Part of it resembles related debates between a nonmagical Batman (without superpowers) versus a magical Superman.

Yet it is unclear to me, how some players got so fixated on a nonmagical Fighter − and why not the Rogue?