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D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
As far as training and feats, I have no idea what that has to do with the conversation.
players having choices over that epic destiny of how they advance into the extraordinary epic levels are often on the hit list of those saying I want it explicit from boons (controlled by the DM) or something similar ie the boons in a sense the 4e powers and feats they gained in epic tier were chosen as a group by the player (4e boons were like magic items and not entirely chosen).

The description I read had epic levels being in 5e being 17 to 20...
 

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Sithlord

Adventurer
So your wizard has a spell every NPC now uses that spell against the party how fun... for you. Oh right martial abilities cannot be considered special enough that everyone isnt going to bring it to the table.
That’s not even the same thing. You are describing a class feature versus a non-class feature.
 

Minigiant

Legend
It's a compromise, like one of many that was made for simplicity. I don't personally have a problem with that.
It's mostly not a problem since people don't play at postlevel 10, pre-olympic play.

The second you become amongst the greatest swordman in the nation or the country's greatest thief, D&D breaks down.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
It would be cool if the spells could be "re-skinned" as special abilities.

I've often wondered at preparing a curated spell list that could reasonably be under the umbrella of heroic abilities.
So basically u want the abilities of magic without the limitations of magic like not being dispelled or countered and functioning in antimagic areas and other limitations that magic has. That sounds fair.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I'm well aware of your love of mythic heroes like Cu Chulainn. I don't want to play Hercules, nor do I want to play 4E.
Nor perseus nor most anyone on this list:

"There are many famous fighters from legend: Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristan, and Sinbad. History is crowded with great generals and warriors: El Cid, Hannibal, Alexander the Great, Charlemagne, Spartacus, Richard the Lionheart, and Belisarius."​

My point was then its very appropriate for you to not play high levels and me not to play low levels but my problem is I do not think the high levels ever reach the mythic when they seem still bound by assumptions of playing the guy down at the gym .
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
Nor perseus nor most anyone on this list:

"There are many famous fighters from legend: Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristan, and Sinbad. History is crowded with great generals and warriors: El Cid, Hannibal, Alexander the Great, Charlemagne, Spartacus, Richard the Lionheart, and Belisarius."​

My point was then its very appropriate for you to not play high levels and me not to play low levels but my problem is I do not think the high levels ever reach the mythic when they seem still bound by assumptions of playing the guy down at the gym .
No thanks. You can play gods if u want. Most on that list aren’t even demigods. But I’ll play conan and Elric at 20th level without the need for playing Hercules and Thor.
 



Minigiant

Legend
No thanks. You can play gods if u want. Most on that list aren’t even demigods. But I’ll play conan and Elric at 20th level without the need for playing Hercules and Thor.
Conan isn't level 20


That's essential how the problem persists. Conan is in the low-mid teens and even then the rules are too weak for him.
 


Yeah, the issue is that if level 20 Wizard gets to be Doctor Strange, then level 20 fighter cannot be Conan or it is blatantly imbalanced. D&D casters are far more powerful than casters in most fantasy fiction, whilst martials are relatively mediocre. If casters only had pretty limited magic like for example in the Middle Earth, then that could be balanced with martials remaining 'normal people' even at high levels.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
No thanks. You can play gods if u want. Most on that list aren’t even demigods. But I’ll play conan and Elric at 20th level without the need for playing Hercules and Thor.
That list was from the player's handbook of 2e AD&D, and significant numbers of the first part of it about half were very much considered a demigod. Thor is indeed not on the list however Siegfried is often presented as an earthly incarnation of Thor being guided towards divinity (by Odin in some stories). Heracles spent most of his stories just a demigod and before that perhaps just thinking he was mostly just an exceptional human having never met his father, and yes eventually transcended to be a god.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, the issue is that if level 20 Wizard gets to be Doctor Strange, then level 20 fighter cannot be Conan or it is blatantly imbalanced. D&D casters are far more powerful than casters in most fantasy fiction, whilst martials are relatively mediocre. If casters only had pretty limited magic like for example in the Middle Earth, then that could be balanced with martials remaining 'normal people' even at high levels.

The closest myths and legends seem to have to the D&D casters (excluding comic book superhero realm) which I have found is from Celtic Myth not Greek Myth not hardly anywhere else but with Lugh Lamhfada and the Tuatha De Danann sorcerer/druids same storyline as Cu Chulainn.
 

I think if I was making a D&D edition I would make the regular game finish at level 12 (or maybe 14).

The other levels would be in the Epic Level Handbook and I'd make clear that they are optional as a whole because characters of that power dramatically change the nature of the game world and are more appropriate for a 'mythic' setting than a traditional fantasy setting.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
My apologies. I thought you were describing an action that was not a maneuver in an earlier post.
No but I can understand how you might have assumed that the original person that described it did not specify too many details about how it would be implemented my desire is very much to give the martials more special things that not on everyone can do this list they might even have a level limit or cost extra attacks and similar to do.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
No but I can understand how you might have assumed that the original person that described it did not specify too many details about how it would be implemented my desire is very much to give the martials more special things that not on everyone can do this list they might even have a level limit or cost extra attacks and similar to do.
Just create new battle maneuvers. I wish they would come out as often as new spells did for
Wizards.
 

There's always been this thing that certain characters are 20th level because that's the highest level you can be.

Like the king of the Barbarians in Greyhawk or Scarred Lands is 20th level just because of the idea that barbarian kings could be overturnned by a challenge by combat.

Or the archmage is 20th level because that's how far the dial goes.

If the dial went to 10 then they'd all be 10th level. In BECMI there were more levels (36) in which case the most powerful wizards were that level.

The only reason to make Conan 20th level is because you want him to be the biggest badass in the world and that's how you measure badassness.
 

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