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D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

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Sithlord

Adventurer
You are just talking about resources and that remains even with what I was saying. If I have a parry maneuver and its now written that I can parry an attack against an adjacent pc... I have another choice about how I am using that maneuver. If I can use second-wind as inspiring shout to heal an ally I am still choosing how to use the resource.

However as to the frequency of using special maneuvers.

I dislike that they are basically almost entirely just hit it with my sword with incredibly in frequent does anything else here is something pretty close to balanced the battlemaster now gets a new "attack" form which allows them to spend one of their attacks scanning for openings the attack is a rarely normal difficult skill check (insight/investigation or similar probably). IF that works you gain a superiority die applicable to this fight.
So your beef is that the fighters abilities are that they hit things?
 

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Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
So your wizard has a spell every NPC now uses that spell against the party how fun... for you. Oh right martial abilities cannot be considered special enough that everyone isnt going to bring it to the table.
I'm not following at all. NPCs use the same spells that PCs use depending on NPC. If a PC can grapple the NPC wizard and stop them from casting, then yes, an NPC could grapple a PC wizard and stop them from casting.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The rules of the game (even house rules) always apply to everyone.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
So your beef is that the fighters abilities are that they hit things
Reductio absurdum a poor argument tactic ... they do more than that but only once in a blue moon I just gave a way to allow one to decide how much one wanted to focus on pure damage dealing vs the flexible other options.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
All I can say is that I want my martial characters to be relatively close to (action movie) reality + magic. WOTC could add new books with what some people would consider "cool awesome powers" but I wouldn't buy it and if it wasn't for threads like this I wouldn't know anyone that does.

Fighters can be more flexible than previous editions but my impression is that people are so focused on getting that last possible plus to their attack or HP that they tank anything that doesn't directly apply to combat. If you want a diplomatic fighter, take a background, have a decent charisma and at some point take a feat.

But there's nothing new here. Just a bunch of "we ignore the guidelines and only ever have 2-3 encounters per long rest so the fighter is overshadowed" and "fighters should be better".
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
NPCs use the same spells that PCs use depending on NPC.

My uber wrestler has picked a maneuver that allows him to do a clamp down efficiently and effectively on a casters attack from close range its more than the standard grab but because its a martial trick every npc now has that same maneuver? and so it will happen all the time..
 


Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
My uber wrestler has picked a maneuver that allows him to do a clamp down efficiently and effectively on a casters attack from close range its more than the standard grab but because its a martial trick every npc now has that same maneuver? and so it will happen all the time..
How would you feel if a DM told you that NPCs could do this but your PC could not?

Rules go both ways in any D&D game in any version I have ever played. Feel free to run it differently.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
How would you feel if a DM told you that NPCs could do this but your PC could not?

Rules go both ways in any D&D game in any version I have ever played. Feel free to run it differently.
NPCs having spells your wizards dont but my fighter cannot have a maneuver every npc does not....
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
If you play mostly low levels you get that even if the game emulates legendary and mythic characters at higher levels.
I don't want martial characters with supernatural abilities (unless it's explicit to the subclass i.e. eldritch knight). I don't care if they're level 1 or level 20. If we started doing epic level campaigns? That might be different but even then it would have to be a blessing from some supernatural power.

No game can be everything to everyone, I'm happy with the way fighters are designed now. If I want supernatural abilities I'll pick the appropriate subclass or play a different class.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
How would you feel if a DM told you that NPCs could do this but your PC could not?
The Orc Shaman has a staff that he uses while commiting regular human sacrifice as part of a community ritual I pick it up and cannot get it to do anything at all so what?.... it took that npc 20 years to bind himself to it doing things I wouldnt do. I dont know or have his skills

Martial skills must intrinsically be so easy anyone can do it /sarcasm.
 


Minigiant

Legend
I don't want martial characters with supernatural abilities (unless it's explicit to the subclass i.e. eldritch knight). I don't care if they're level 1 or level 20. If we started doing epic level campaigns? That might be different but even then it would have to be a blessing from some supernatural power

I'd be fine with this if martial characters at least hit Olympic levels.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That might be different but even then it would have to be a blessing from some supernatural power.
There is blessing in the blood and not necessarily known immediately. The classic hero discovers his part way through the story (like Herakles and Perseus and Cu Chulainn did - it was even Alexander the Great's Storyline that he had divine heritage) that they had a foretold or unusual birth and that parent they never or barely knew as a child was a divine power and how he can always tell when someone is dead is a side effect of his mother blessing him with water from the river styx.

These are massively character transformative things that 4e allowed players to choose not something a DM rando applies to your character and they put them in epic destinies some of which are less supernatural flavored than others some are just very extraordinary.

Do you play out every gaining of a feat in the story do you have to find a teacher for them or do they just happen because this is a game?
 
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Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I'd be fine with this if martial characters at least hit Olympic levels.
That's more of a problem with the simplified interpretation than anything though, isn't it? That and most olympic athletes aren't doing long jumps while wearing plate armor. ;)
 


Minigiant

Legend
That's more of a problem with the simplified interpretation than anything though, isn't it? That and most olympic athletes aren't doing long jumps while wearing plate armor. ;)
Well that's the whole point.

That fighters and rogues are restrained by the simple inaccurate game rules for ease and knowledge sake.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
There is blessing in the blood and not necessarily known immediately. The classic hero discovers his part way through the story (like Herakles and Perseus and Cu Chulainn did - it was even Alexander the Great's Storyline that he had divine heritage) that they had a foretold or unusual birth and that parent they never or barely knew as a child was a divine power and how he can always tell when someone is dead is a side effect of his mother blessing him with water from the river styx.

These are massively character transformative things that 4e allowed players to choose not something a DM rando applies to your character and they put them in epic destinies some of which are less supernatural flavored than others some are just as very extraordinary.

Do you play out every gaining of a feat in the story do you have to find a teacher for them or do they just happen because this is a game?
I'm well aware of your love of mythic heroes like Cu Chulainn. I don't want to play Hercules, nor do I want to play 4E. For that matter, I'm not sure I'd even want to play epic level 5E if they came out with a supplement (even though I did it in 4E). You want a different game than the one I play. There's nothing wrong with that.

As far as training and feats, I have no idea what that has to do with the conversation.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Well that's the whole point.

That fighters and rogues are restrained by the simple inaccurate game rules for ease and knowledge sake.
It's a compromise, like one of many that was made for simplicity. I don't personally have a problem with that.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That's more of a problem with the simplified interpretation than anything though, isn't it? That and most olympic athletes aren't doing long jumps while wearing plate armor. ;)
taking off the armor has no impact... it sounds like magic armor which is the most likely thing you have at high levels just fits better
 

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