D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[TheSword]

foresight, force cage, dimension door/teleport, simulacrum, greater invisibility, banishment etcetera?

Of that short list, 4 choices don't require concentration. This entire discussion assumes all parties understand how 5e works, and that concentration is a limitation.

I regularly have characters that know more than one concentration spell, and I don't see why you'd try to constrain a caster to only one when discussing their flexibility. Red herring.

Which is why I referred to spell slots as the other limitation. If a caster wants to use their only 9th level slot to be slightly better in combat then okay... I suspect Foresight is not used very often though.

If people have 1500gp of ruby dust and want to use their only 7th level slot to trap some people for an hour then sure. They can. Also suspect it’s not a go to spell.

Teleport moves you from A to B. It’s use is entirely circumstantial and limited by size of the party... also a one way trip at a 7th level unless you plan on waiting a day.

Simulacrum... cracks me up... the limitations make it impractical for typical adventures when you have... you know... other players to think about who are unlikely to just sit around while you carve your icy spell battery. They start of naked, have pitiful hp, destroyed instantly at 0 hp and can be ended with a single 3rd level spell and a lucky roll - or guaranteed with an instant 7th level spell. 12 hours work and 1500 ruby dust (you’re getting through the ruby dust at a fair speed here) all ended with a single spell... Simulacrum works where a DM has lost all control over the campaign or doesn’t care.

As for the other two, I can’t believe anyone is claiming a spell that requires concentration is overpowered.

These spells are only OP compared to what martials can do in white room theorycrafting and the bedrooms of teenagers.

 

[Undrave]

From experience, I can say that all of the classes can be fun.

I dunno, I find Clerics can be pretty boring

All I can say is that I will never play a Battlemaster. I kind of despise the "this isn't a spell or supernatural in any way but it's a limited resource you can only use X number of times" structure. Besides, I don't need to be Superman to have fun playing the game.

Have maneuvers you can only use in special circumstances? Sure. Have maneuvers cost HP because you're pushing yourself beyond what it normally can take? Okay. Revert to 4E mechanics? Not for me, thanks.

What about class features that improve your already existing options? Like what Sentinel does? Maybe a feature to let you Shove larger creatures, one that give you some Temp HP when you Dodge, that sort of 'always on' options? Not unlike what the Rogue alrady does but with a different flavor... or not unlike the Extra Attack action.

Oh, I liked those. They should have start earlier than 20 though. A level 11 rogue should be stealing someone's skills and memories, not their coins.

Well at that point it's just a matter of calibrating expectation. A thing I liked about Epic Destiny is that they presented a sort of road map for saying goodbye to your character, a sort of retirement plan. It helped you think about your character's goal and personality. All the 'Immortality?' sections were a lot of funs and something they should have included in 5e. A lot of capstone abilities are just... SO BAD. It's the last level(s)! You should have something more than +3 to DMG once per turn or something.

I'm not denying anyone anything. I can't make these types of decision anyways. All I can do is probe deeper and get to the root cause.

I first want to see if its a vocal minority or a silent majority. If its the former, it just...might not be worth WoTC's resources and time may be better spent buffing out more widespread game flaws. If its the latter, we can still ask questions and probe deeper.

It may seem like my mind hasn't been changed but it actually has throughout this thread. The perception of certain classes and playstyles have been introduced that I really hadn't taken into consideration. Even still, I want to be thorough.

Again, is there less people asking for a complex martial and a simpler caster than people asking for the dang Artificer??

No game is ever going to be perfect. But in 4E they seemed to listen to a vocal minority and, frankly, it didn't work (being rushed didn't help either). With 5E we had one of the most extensive playtests ever done for a game and it's now the best selling version we've ever had.

The success of 5E isn't solely because of design decisions (and there's some I'd change), but without a solid foundation that works reasonably well it would never have seen the success we had today. People seem to forget that 5E was kind of a Hail Mary, which fortunately for the game, connected.

I agree that with the PHB alone they wouldn't be able to please everyone... but I would have hoped to see more effort towards that in the intervening years you know? We only NOW getting more maneuvers? And there's still none particularly tailors to the challenges faced by high level characters?

but 4e despite its flaws had ideas that were worth going back to just with fresh eyes and great knowledge.

As you say. A lot of cool ideas got thrown out with 4e just because of the stigma (I'm on record as being a huge proponent of Healing Surges and the way the burden healing also expended ressources from the healed character and not just the healer. It deserved a fine tuning, not an execution!), though some of them got sneaked in somewhat. I still think AC+NADs were a smart design (You want to affect someone? You're the one who rolls), especially as it opened up ways for Martial characters to sometimes target NADs instead of just AC without having weird saving throw descriptions tacked on. Plus, I think it's easier to explain how to attack someone if it's always done the same way.

 

[Minigiant]

I assume this will also include the blood-mage, ability-thief, gunner, and a true 4-element caster class, right?

These would definitely be needed in order for me to feel like all my wishes were granted. No even holding my breath for some of them, though.

I believe GURPS is best for this type of "anyone can play" playstyle and I'm unsure if D&D even cares about long-term fans nearly as much as the newer ones coming in from 5e.

WOTC wants D&D to be a game for everyone. They want to allow major deviation in order to make anyone become a fan. A D&D for all.

They should start finally building and designing it like one.

 

[Flamestrike]

In what ways is a Champion Fighter better at "helping team members stay alive" and contributing a solid amount of damage than a paladin or hexblade?

When the latter two are out of spell slots.

 

[ph0rk]

slightly better in combat then okay

Assuming you mean foresight, it's much more than that. Advantage on nearly everything including out of combat ability checks, saving throws, and attacks, and thus a concentration slot free to use on something else if the caster was using it for advantage in combat (Shadow of Moil, Greater Invis). That is really, really big. Capstone level big, and Hexblades and Wizards get it at 17.

When the latter two are out of spell slots.

The champion is still unlikely to be as good in both melee and ranged combat at the same time as the hexblade. They don't need any slots at all for this.


What's more, under the premise argued by many above (In particular Asisreo, both here and elsewhere), tailoring the adventuring day to adequately deplete long rest resources isn't necessary. I think that's wrong, and a major problem with 5e balance, but for that to be true they would have to accept that casters that never run out of spell slots are quite overpowered.


If a wizard or hexblade that never runs out out of slots isn't a problem, then the resource as their primary balance against champions and non-AT rogues doesn't make sense.

 

[Vaalingrade]

No game is ever going to be perfect. But in 4E they seemed to listen to a vocal minority and, frankly, it didn't work (being rushed didn't help either).

Listening to the actual vocal minority resulted in the real tragedy: Essentials, the 'compromise edition' that solved 'issues' like 'fighters are too fun and good' and 'The AEDU system makes classes too consistent and easy to use'.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I don't think I'd inherently have a problem with every single class having a simple, medium, complex subclass system and there was a subsystem. It would need to be done delicately, though. The simple subclasses should the more powerful option if a kid/teenager plays them, but complex subclasses should be less powerful if used haphazardly but more powerful with a strategic mind backing them.

That would be nice, but going for this with every class might be overkill. You don't need a simple version of druid and cleric, a simple cleric that could be nature-themed is good enough. I'd say similar things about complex barbarians - I'd rather have the mechanical room to refluff a complex fighter subclass than a trickier rage-based option.

If anything, I'd say all 5e needs is a swordsage, a streamlined warlock package, and more options for stepping outside the default flavor of various classes.

 

[ph0rk]

Some recommended Warlock builds would have been a good idea, and probably more important for many readers than recommended Battlemaster builds, given how many more choices there are.

 

[Umbran]

WOTC wants D&D to be a game for everyone.

Whatever marketing may say, I expect WotC wants D&D to sell well, for some definition of "well".

I don't know that anyone at WotC is under the illusion that the game can be for "everyone", any more than an automobile manufacturer thinks they can make just one car for everyone. Wildly popular? Sure. Everyone? I don't think that's an actual goal.

They should start finally building and designing it like one.

Design for everyone, and nobody will want to use it. Some choices need to be made.

 

[Flamestrike]

The champion is still unlikely to be as good in both melee and ranged combat at the same time as the hexblade. They don't need any slots at all for this.

OK. You're an 12th level Hexblade. No slots available, no spells running.

Lets assume magic exists. You have a RotPK+1, Armor of your choice +1 and a weapon of your choice +1

Champion Fighter. Vuman. Fighting styles: Archery, Combat superiority (precise strike). Feats: GWM, Martial Adept (trip attack, riposte), Sharpshooter, +2 Str, +1 Str and Dex. S 20, D 16, C 14, I 10 W 12 CH 8

Gear: Bow, Greatsword, Full Plate. All +1

AC 19, HP 100, Init +6

Lets see your slot-less Hexblade 12.