• COMING SOON! -- Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition! Level up your 5E game! The standalone advanced 5E tabletop RPG adds depth and diversity to the game you love!
log in or register to remove this ad

 

D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sithlord

Adventurer
Or. And hear me out here...

we can vocally request that WoTC do what we want and show them that there is money in doing so...
I mean. How maybe requests and threads are there on such requests. Even if they do red this it will take them a couple of years to develop it and playtest it. So in the meantime the next couple of years. We don’t have what we want. Corporations move slow unless they are doing damage control.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Aldarc

Legend
Actually you are mistaken about your criticism of fighter being the most played class. It shows a number of important things. It may not show why we have a breakdown of 13% fighter 11% rogue 9% warlock 8% barbarian 8% wizard 8% cleric 7% bard monk sorcerer paladin 6% druid & 1% artificer , but it shows things like...
  • if the fact that a fighter needs to use athletics or a rope to climb down a 50 foot cliff face rather than leaping off with featherfall is a negative that negative is not a significant factor, is compensated for in other areas the class has strengths, is actually a boon as the subjectively better method (cooler/less costly/more flexible/etc), or similar.
  • The Combat pillar is unquestionably the primary focus of d&d and most sessions at most tables. Weaknesses at combat in classes less effective in the combat pillar might have some bearing on why those classes are so underrepresented. As a result those topics should be credibly discussed or investigated in good faith rather than dismissing them with complaints about how they can do something in the other pillars a way different from how the most popular class does it.
  • The top three classes are all in possession of the most effective at will combat options. Given the popularity of high damage classes in MMOs & other games that at will capability almost certainly has a nonzero impact on why those three lead the pack. If making every class have the same damage output is a bad thing (I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise) then discussing & investigating the nondamage combat pillar shortcomings of those bottom classes has merit. Some of the examples that have been put forward are overuse of concentration magic resist legendary resist & energy resist/immune. Other examples are too much focus on fighting the LFQW problems of past editions in too many ways resulting in a collective overcorrection & the stagnation of spell slot accumulation as levels progress.
  • out of 13 classes in 5e 7 of the bottom 8 are casters, the top 3 warlock exception has an at will ability that functions more like the fighter's than what is available to any other caster. System elements & design tenets that predominantly effect casters in negative ways should not be ignored from the discussion & investigation of the above points. They may even be worth serious good faith discussion &investigation of their own.
  • so on & s forth,
How does this somehow demonstrate that I am mistaken in my criticism of an ad populum argument? In regards to the gish gallop of points you make here, we have to be cautious about reading causation where there is correlation especially when there are a number of complex reasons why people choose certain classes.
 

Mort

Legend
While I get your point, I want to disagree with the severity here.

Getting Persuasion in 5e is really not hard. Its not a big cost. Oh I'm a noble instead of a solider....done. Just that simple. Backgrounds are mainly about skills, so if you want a skill, take a background that has it. Done. Skills are pretty easy if you want a specific one, its just hard if you want a LOT of skills.

Choosing one manuever to be really good at something is not a huge investment. Maneuvers can be spammed, there is nothing that stops a BM fighter from just using say.... Parry and Precision attack all day every day and be perfectly, wonderful fine in combat. If you want to take the last maneuver for a persuasion bump....your really not reducing your combat effectiveness all that much.
You only get 4 maneuver dice per short rest. Every die you use outside of combat reduces the number you get in combat (and vice versa) - it's not an insignificant cost.

It's the same problem the monk encounters (at low levels) in that, in theory, there's lots they can do but because all of the abilities key off the same resource, in practice, it's quite limited.

Monks get more Ki as they level, Battlemasters don't get more than 4 dice ever (well 15th level they always start combat with 1, but that's quite late) - that's pretty limited for both an in and out of combat resource.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Battlemasters don't get more than 4 dice ever
They do get more (5 at 7th and 6 at 15th)

Just not a ton more.

And, given how many attacks they have in Tier 2 and 3 you can burn through that slightly larger pool faster.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Or. And hear me out here...

we can vocally request that WoTC do what we want and show them that there is money in doing so...
Yeah....aka how a product actually works.

There is a reason that fast food restaurants have 10 different meals on the board, or cars come in a variety of colors. Product makers have found that variety helps them sell product.

That said, variety does have cost. For example, some fast food restaurants offer so many options that its impacted their "at the window" times....which in turn reduces their customer base. So as with all things, there is a balance.

But part of the balance is the feedback from their customers, both in voice and in dollars. So customers should absolutely feel desire to give feedback if additional choices would increase their satisfaction. Its up to the product maker to balance that feedback with the costs of increased variety to decide if its worth doing or not.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Yeah....aka how a product actually works.

There is a reason that fast food restaurants have 10 different meals on the board, or cars come in a variety of colors. Product makers have found that variety helps them sell product.

That said, variety does have cost. For example, some fast food restaurants offer so many options that its impacted their "at the window" times....which in turn reduces their customer base. So as with all things, there is a balance.

But part of the balance is the feedback from their customers, both in voice and in dollars. So customers should absolutely feel desire to give feedback if additional choices would increase their satisfaction. Its up to the product maker to balance that feedback with the costs of increased variety to decide if its worth doing or not.
Yep - player feedback is almost certainly why 4e was such a departure from 3e, where LFQW may have been at the worst it ever was.

Then again, player feedback gave us 5e “psionics”.
 

Stalker0

Legend
You only get 4 maneuver dice per short rest. Every die you use outside of combat reduces the number you get in combat (and vice versa) - it's not an insignificant cost.
Which goes back to notion of how your dm does encounter balance. If your having just a "social" day meeting with the lord, not going into a dungeon, a fighter might feel very comfortable using their die all on social maneuvers. After all if the noble gives them an adventure...they will probably take a short rest before they head out anyway.

People severely underestimate the ability to "do something they couldn't do before". Whether its at-will or once per day... its cool when you can do something that others can't....even just the threat of it, the potential....is cool.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I mean. How maybe requests and threads are there on such requests. Even if they do red this it will take them a couple of years to develop it and playtest it. So in the meantime the next couple of years.
The Unearthed Arcana's are a midstep approach. It allows WOTC to try out concepts and put them out much quicker than a full and formal development.

While they aren't "official official", it does give tables who are "WOTC pure" to try some concepts that they may not be willing to do if its put out by 3pp.
 

Mort

Legend
Which goes back to notion of how your dm does encounter balance. If your having just a "social" day meeting with the lord, not going into a dungeon, a fighter might feel very comfortable using their die all on social maneuvers. After all if the noble gives them an adventure...they will probably take a short rest before they head out anyway.

People severely underestimate the ability to "do something they couldn't do before". Whether its at-will or once per day... its cool when you can do something that others can't....even just the threat of it, the potential....is cool.

Sure, the social maneuvers are something - as I said, babysteps.

But even here, that's assuming Tasha's is allowed, and that's a fairly recent addition.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Mod Note:

Folks, there's now 50 pages of this. I don't see a whole lot of movement. It looks like people entrenched in their positions, repeating them to each other, over and over, occasionally loudly and rudely.

If that doesn't change soon, this thread is apt to be closed as an attractive nuisance. As always, treat people respectfully.
 

Asisreo

Fiendish Attorney
Mod Note:

Folks, there's now 50 pages of this. I don't see a whole lot of movement. It looks like people entrenched in their positions, repeating them to each other, over and over, occasionally loudly and rudely.

If that doesn't change soon, this thread is apt to be closed as an attractive nuisance. As always, treat people respectfully.
It seems we've reached over a thousand posts on this subject. There has been some perspectives that have been put forth in this discussion. Some has been very integral to the discussion, others have convinced me to have takeout tonight.

Regardless, I feel there's still some misunderstandings or poor portrayals that are still in this thread, so I want to clear some things about my personal position and where it has moved during this thread:

I'm not against a complex-type noncasting martial, nor have I ever been. More classes, implemented well, is a plus in my book. Though, I wouldn't want a rushed or incomplete addition, which is why I believe a more in-depth discussion about what people's desires for the class is important.

When it comes to the debate, I always wondered precisely why complexity had to be separate from magical ability. To me, it was just a thing that WoTC decided on and ran with. No hostility nor desire to isolate members of the community, they just thought it would be a neat flavor. So I wondered what exactly people wanted from nonmagical characters.

What do I want for nonmagical characters? I was somewhat neutral overall in the beginning, but after reading some things, I agree letting strength-type characters performing superhuman feats of strength with ease would be a cool and appropriate addition in the realm of high-level play.

Though, I also believe there's still something in the community at large that needs to be addressed about how to handle "Guy-at-the-gymism" and how DM's both veteran and new can create both a satisfying experience for high-level martials while staying within an appropriate power scale.

What we want, ultimately, is a fun experience for this edition and future editions. We may not entirely agree with how its done, but I still believe looking these disagreements in the face and coming to mutual understandings will help the community move forward.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
and frankly, expanding their role in it would just lead to the same complaints now being made about the Wizard (that they step on too many toes).

Look at the battlemaster its already doing flexible battlefield roles just not doing them well IMO unless probably feat dependent I do not think making the fighter even more battlefield versatile is some infringement ... that could be the definition of how he is better than others without being "outclasses others" --> in 4e terms he is Defender/Leader/Striker/Controller dependent on choices on the field of battle not during build time.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
Look at the battlemaster its already doing flexible battlefield roles just not doing them well IMO unless probably feat dependent I do not think making the fighter even more battlefield versatile is some infringement ... that could be the definition of how he is better than others without being "outclasses others" --> in 4e terms he is Defender/Leader/Striker/Controller dependent on choices on the field of battle not during build time.
The thing is I like the battle master because they have to decide if they now is the time to use a maneuver or should i save it because I might need it later. I like those kind of feature class builds. Maybe it’s better to do a standard attack and save that ability for later.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I have no idea what u mean by that in response to what I quoted from me.
I could have read too much but it sounded like a turn about is fair play argument. Basically I meant that just because a hero might be able to time and accomplish some stunt does not mean npcs can manage the same thing with any efficiency. In AD&D if your dm let you basically the spell description indicated that someone could intercept the seed of a fireball or lightning bolt and cause it to blow up or bounce back in the face of the caster. A hero having an ability to do a maneuver that interfered in such a way does not mean every player wizard would likely have captain america npcs throwing their shields at the last minute and a fireball blowing up in their faces.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
I could have read too much but it sounded like a turn about is fair play argument. Basically I meant that just because a hero might be able to time and accomplish some stunt does not mean npcs can manage the same thing with any efficiency. In AD&D if your dm let you basically the spell description indicated that someone could intercept the seed of a fireball or lightning bolt and cause it to blow up or bounce back in the face of the caster. A hero having an ability to do a maneuver that interfered in such a way does not mean every player wizard would likely have captain america npcs throwing their shields at the last minute and a fireball blowing up in their faces.
I have never played in a game where that is a pc was allowed to do it that a NPC was not. So that’s new to me.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I could have read too much but it sounded like a turn about is fair play argument. Basically I meant that just because a hero might be able to time and accomplish some stunt does not mean npcs can manage the same thing with any efficiency. In AD&D if your dm let you basically the spell description indicated that someone could intercept the seed of a fireball or lightning bolt and cause it to blow up or bounce back in the face of the caster. A hero having an ability to do a maneuver that interfered in such a way does not mean every player wizard would likely have captain america npcs throwing their shields at the last minute and a fireball blowing up in their faces.
Anything that PCs can do, NPCs can do in my game and every game I've ever played.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The thing is I like the battle master because they have to decide if they now is the time to use a maneuver or should i save it because I might need it later. I like those kind of feature class builds. Maybe it’s better to do a standard attack and save that ability for later.
You are just talking about resources and that remains even with what I was saying. If I have a parry maneuver and its now written that I can parry an attack against an adjacent pc... I have another choice about how I am using that maneuver. If I can use second-wind as inspiring shout to heal an ally I am still choosing how to use the resource.

However as to the frequency of using special maneuvers.

I dislike that they are basically almost entirely just hit it with my sword with incredibly in frequent does anything else here is something pretty close to balanced the battlemaster now gets a new "attack" form which allows them to spend one of their attacks scanning for openings the attack is a rarely normal difficult skill check (insight/investigation or similar probably). IF that works you gain a superiority die applicable to this fight.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Anything that PCs can do, NPCs can do in my game and every game I've ever played.
So your wizard has a spell every NPC now uses that spell against the party how fun... for you. Oh right martial abilities cannot be considered special enough that everyone isnt going to bring it to the table.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top