D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Shadowedeyes]

I don't think there is a problem with having simple and complex classes. The problem is that it is also tied to character concept. You may be a big Harry Potter fan and want to play a "wizard" but dislike the complexity of spellcasters in DnD. Conversely, you may want some tactical decision making with your Conan expy. Right now, the martial character is not going to be as complex as the simplest spellcaster. Which means you either choose playstyle or character concept.

 

[Umbran]

You clearly arent arguing in good faith, so whatever.

Mod Note

"You aren't arguing in good faith," has become a catch all dismissal, free of actual content, folks can just slap it on there whenever they can't browbeat others into agreement or silence.

It is also a personal smear. So, I'm warning you away from using it.

... the grognard brigade ....

... are also a sizable chunk of the player base, you know. You just insulted them.

I understand you haven't gotten what you wanted in the game. That IS NOT an excuse to treat people badly. Throwing mud around here because you haven't gotten what you wanted is not a mature response.

So, you're done in the thread.

 

[Oofta]

given 5e goal of going back to basics, it would be logical for them to not have fixed martials
plus people who want more complex martial are noted to like 4e and after the backlash, they would be likely to have a nuanced look at it.

No game is ever going to be perfect. But in 4E they seemed to listen to a vocal minority and, frankly, it didn't work (being rushed didn't help either). With 5E we had one of the most extensive playtests ever done for a game and it's now the best selling version we've ever had.

The success of 5E isn't solely because of design decisions (and there's some I'd change), but without a solid foundation that works reasonably well it would never have seen the success we had today. People seem to forget that 5E was kind of a Hail Mary, which fortunately for the game, connected.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I don't think there is a problem with having simple and complex classes. The problem is that it is also tied to character concept. You may be a big Harry Potter fan and want to play a "wizard" but dislike the complexity of spellcasters in DnD. Conversely, you may want some tactical decision making with your Conan expy. Right now, the martial character is not going to be as complex as the simplest spellcaster. Which means you either choose playstyle or character concept.

a simple spell caster would also be useful for the game.

No game is ever going to be perfect. But in 4E they seemed to listen to a vocal minority and, frankly, it didn't work (being rushed didn't help either). With 5E we had one of the most extensive playtests ever done for a game and it's now the best selling version we've ever had.

The success of 5E isn't solely because of design decisions (and there's some I'd change), but without a solid foundation that works reasonably well it would never have seen the success we had today. People seem to forget that 5E was kind of a Hail Mary, which fortunately for the game, connected.

also, a lot of luck like critical role got a whole lot of people to see it along with stranger things.
but 4e despite its flaws had ideas that were worth going back to just with fresh eyes and great knowledge.

 

[Asisreo]

I don't think there is a problem with having simple and complex classes. The problem is that it is also tied to character concept. You may be a big Harry Potter fan and want to play a "wizard" but dislike the complexity of spellcasters in DnD. Conversely, you may want some tactical decision making with your Conan expy. Right now, the martial character is not going to be as complex as the simplest spellcaster. Which means you either choose playstyle or character concept.

This is very true, in my experience. I've said it was a design choice, though I wonder how well-received it would be if implemented the other way.

I don't think I'd inherently have a problem with every single class having a simple, medium, complex subclass system and there was a subsystem. It would need to be done delicately, though. The simple subclasses should the more powerful option if a kid/teenager plays them, but complex subclasses should be less powerful if used haphazardly but more powerful with a strategic mind backing them.

Its a very nuanced system and one that game designers across the world in any interactive medium must consider in asymmetric multiplayer design.

It could work, though, and be interesting in 6e.

 

[Minigiant]

The core issue to me is that D&D has grown to an audience beyond it's 1970s roots.

At some point in order to satisfy all it's fans, D&D has to make classes and races for all it's fans. Groups will just need to learn to ban stuff they don't like.

Just make the complex martial class, mental warrior class, and half caster class.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

This is very true, in my experience. I've said it was a design choice, though I wonder how well-received it would be if implemented the other way.

I don't think I'd inherently have a problem with every single class having a simple, medium, complex subclass system and there was a subsystem. It would need to be done delicately, though. The simple subclasses should the more powerful option if a kid/teenager plays them, but complex subclasses should be less powerful if used haphazardly but more powerful with a strategic mind backing them.

Its a very nuanced system and one that game designers across the world in any interactive medium must consider in asymmetric multiplayer design.

It could work, though, and be interesting in 6e.

In 5e subclasses don't have the necessary "space" to really deviate to far from the class. Hence why Battlemaster is still less complex than casters. Maybe in a future edition, sure.

 

[Oofta]

...
also, a lot of luck like critical role got a whole lot of people to see it along with stranger things.
but 4e despite its flaws had ideas that were worth going back to just with fresh eyes and great knowledge.

Luck and timing absolutely played a part. But with CR it's kind of a chicken and the egg. The show started as a home campaign with the first game using D&D (I believe 4E) that switched to Pathfinder and then to 5E after it's release and as they made the decision to start streaming their games. According to the CR wiki "Changing over to an online show with so many players, combat tends to get bogged down with a lot of floating modifiers which can make it more difficult to keep it flowing and moving. Once Matt had taken a look at 5E, it was a little more simplified and easier to take things and just roll with it."

So D&D 5E became the chassis for CR because of DM and player preference. So Matt switched because for him it was a better game system because of the better flow and simplified combat. Much the same reason I play 5E and part of why it's so popular.

As far as 4E, I will always wonder what could have been if they had been given more time to experiment, get feedback and polish the system. The structure of powers was originally intended to be there only for some classes, not all. Water under the bridge now.

 

[Sacrosanct]

No game is ever going to be perfect. But in 4E they seemed to listen to a vocal minority and, frankly, it didn't work (being rushed didn't help either).

I don't think they necessarily listened to a vocal minority. I think they looked at 3e, saw some issues there (way overpowered casters compared to martials, numbers bloat, etc) and tried to solve those the best they thought at the time, regardless of what fan voices were saying.

4e is a great game for what they wanted to do with it. It just turned out to not be as popular as they hoped because many fans felt it was too much of a deviation from what they view D&D as.

 

[Asisreo]

The core issue to me is that D&D has grown to an audience beyond it's 1970s roots.

At some point in order to satisfy all it's fans, D&D has to make classes and races for all it's fans. Groups will just need to learn to ban stuff they don't like.

Just make the complex martial class, mental warrior class, and half caster class.

I assume this will also include the blood-mage, ability-thief, gunner, and a true 4-element caster class, right?

These would definitely be needed in order for me to feel like all my wishes were granted. No even holding my breath for some of them, though.

I believe GURPS is best for this type of "anyone can play" playstyle and I'm unsure if D&D even cares about long-term fans nearly as much as the newer ones coming in from 5e.