D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Sacrosanct]

Everyone has their own take on the problem(or lack thereof). But for myself, I don't necessarily need martial abilities to do the same thing as spells. It would be nice if martial characters got some unique and flavorful abilities that felt as meaningful as some spells do that couldn't be easily duplicated by magic.

Such as? Not being flippant, serious question.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I was thinking back to my own experience with high-level non-magic martials in 5e and I realized: I don't have any such experience. I've played quite a bit of high-level 5e (most of the games I'm go well in to the upper teens if not all the way to 20th level), but everyone has some kind of magic to call on, as a class feature. The least magical options I've seen in play are Rune Knight and Monk.

I have noticed that full casters don't really overshadow weapon users in high-level combat, because the damage output of a high-level weapon user, whether directly or indirectly aided by magic, is way above what casters can do. A well-placed 6+ level spell is a big deal, but you still gotta hit the dragon for 500 hp, which the fighters are uniquely capable of.

As for out-of-combat utility: IME dm's who get to this point account for what the pc's can do when designing challenges, and roleplay-based options (ie followers and connections) are pretty good equalizers.

Edit: I recalled that there was a Battlemaster fighter in one game that got to 18th. Between maneuvers and a magic sword, he didn't feel particularly underwhelming or mundane.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

People want it all.

EK suck! They have no utility! Could you take ritual caster with feats? “Yeah but what about gwm!” Ok. Could you take find familiar at 1, light as a cantrip and prestidgitation? Yeah but what about firebolt!

how about a multiclass wizard fighter? They sucktoo! they don’t get as many feats as a fighter or as many high level spells as a wizard!

yeah. I think the anti EK stuff is in line with anti fighter wizard stuff. The restrictions on schools of magic play a role with the EK bias however. And that’s a design thing.

feats really get rid of this concern though if you use them. Magic initiate, ritual caster and the two feats in tashas blow it apart. The fey and shadow magic feats open it u a great deal inmho. But you have to really want the versatility and make an investment.

none of this is an indictment of dissatisfaction with EK, btw. Just a statement about flexibility.

if you get minor image and silent image you can do a lot of nutty stuff. Maybe take friends as a cantrip....

you gotta invest and yes sacrifice to get more though

 

[Asisreo]

If you think a wizard at level 17 with the freedom to comfortably cast a level 9, 8, 7, 6, and then 1 or two 5th level spells is somehow advantaging a level 17 fighter, I don't think we are arguing from the same premise.

To give an illustration of exactly what I mean, do you mind playing a simple game with me?

I have two identical monsters a hypothetical party must fight. You are a wizard with the Ultimate spells known list of every single wizard spell in the PHB, so long as it doesn't have a costly component (if you cast Wish, its works the exact same so don't worry).

These creatures have a muscular, hairless humanoid shape with Opalescent green skin and white feathered wings. It carries a Greatsword and is of large size.

Without reading the Monster Manual or looking up a similar creature, which sequence of 6 spells would you cast as a Wizard? I will tell you what they cast if they can counter and I will tell you your percent chance of success given a DC 19 Spell Save.

Note: This challenge extends to all in the thread. I'll try to evaluate each one. Due to the nature of the encounter, I do expect some to come up with a good chance of succeeding in the challenge, but I still would like to use it as a point.

 

[ph0rk]

feats really get rid of this concern though if you use them. Magic initiate, ritual caster and the two feats in tashas blow it apart.

They really don't. 1 extra hex or hunters mark and 1 misty step a day and the tomfoolery that is War Magic in Tier 2 is just treading water. By tier 3, of course, War magic is utterly laughable, the Hexblade next door finally has EA+PAM+GWM online with shadow of moil, and you're halfway through the tier before you get access to..... fireball.

 

[ph0rk]

Without reading the Monster Manual or looking up a similar creature, which sequence of 6 spells would you cast as a Wizard? I will tell you what they cast if they can counter and I will tell you your percent chance of success given a DC 19 Spell Save.

Only if there is also an equal CR encounter made entirely of 1/4 CR archers, with a 100 foot chasm between the fighter and the archers, and a wall boxing the fighter in.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Because --often--if someone wants to play a Fighter they want to do what they think of as Fighter-things. If they want to play a Rogue, they want to do what they think of as Rogue-things. They're not playing a Fighter or a Rogue to do Wizard s[tuff]. If they wanted to do Wizard s[tuff] they'd play a Wizard.

I agree. I would also add that there is a list of spells that are inherently unbalanced. Even if they are a limited resource, nothing a character can get in a single level in the game can compete with them. Head of that list is Wish and Simulcrum.

What could you possible give a fighter that competes with casting Wish once per day?

 

[Undrave]

Animal handling says, "Hold my beer um, reins."


(I would say performance, but if you're using that, you're probably playing with Bards already, in which case all hope is already lost ....)

They suck too, but they don't risk making things worst as a default effect.

 

[Mort]

This actually makes it more of an issue. If there is only 1 fight in an adventuring day and it takes 5-6 rounds to complete, the wizard has only 6 rounds to cast spells which mean they have only 6 chances to "get it right." Remember, a wizard cannot cast all their spells all at once. They take it turn-by-turn and if they're casting high-level spells, the amount of spells they can cast with an accurate guess dwindle in number and power.

Casting the 9th-level Wish for Forcecage only to have the creature pass a teleport save means that the Wizard can't attempt to True Polymorph in the encounter anymore.

And these series of guesses must continue, because actions are limited and truly strong spell slots aren't exactly the easiest to come by.

1. IMO focusing on extremely high level play (or even mid-high level) isn't ideal. Most games never make it that far, with the great majority maxing out at 12 or so.

2. While casters certainly have limited resources, the resources they do have tend to define encounters. At low level a sleep spell can turn a difficult encounter into a cakewalk. At low-mid level spells like hypnotic pattern can swing an encounter from nearly unwinnable to medium or easier. I was in a 10th level party where hypnotic pattern completely changed a likely TPK (large force of fire giants) into a mop up scenario - clear victory.

3. The whole "casters have to resource manage and martials can go all day..." argument is extremely misleading. Martials have serious resources too, for ex. HPs are a resource. And while casters have to watch HP too, they don't (intentionally) put themselves in harm's way like martials do. Further, unless you have a DM who is extremely good at controlling the pace of an adventure - casters tend to control the downtime, so the resource management is less an issue.

Now this is not to say things aren't more balanced in 5e. Casters appear similar to prior editions but concentration, less spell slots, the nerfing of many spells and (especially) the clamping down on easy item creation has actually gone a long way to taming their power. Which simply means, in a properly run games, you need a mix of martials and casters to prevail.

 

[Shiroiken]

Eh, I'll take the unpopular opinion that the "problem" is overinflated nonsense based on whiteboard theory crafting. Having played to the epic tier, and about to hit 15th level in our current game, the martials are perfectly fine. Are there things casters can do that they can't? Yup, but that doesn't make that much of a difference because the barbarian and paladin can do things they can't too. Out of combat utility is also overrated, since the rogue can do many of these things just as well, without needing a spell slot or preparing the spell.