D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Stalker0]

In a party with only one other melee-preferred character, this is actually a benefit to the proned, unless you have a large field of adversaries, in which case grappling one might be a waste of your time. It can be really good, but it depends entirely on the encounter and party.

Of course, just as everything in dnd does. But you had made the claim that "athletics is a joke", and I feel I have effectively countered that criticism.

 

[ph0rk]

I enjoy tactical combat. I play JRPG's almost exclusively.

That isn't even remotely the same kind of tactical depth.

There is, and its the EK.

And I am here to tell you that you are flat wrong. The EK is not, let me stress this, is not anywhere nearly as flexible as a full caster - any full caster, even a warlock. Particularly with their school restrictions.

Your combat routine is pretty much set in stone from Tier 1 onward, with only minor changes. A Haste or a Shadow Blade is not that mechanically interesting, and other gishy types roll that out long before you do.

I don't think many of my friends like game-deciding decisions because its too much pressure. When the heat is on them and only them, they say they aren't enjoying it. I'm also an introvert, so stepping up and saying "This will fix it." Only for the creature to heartily resist is almost a nightmare.

I don't think a wizard will be desirable in that environment, and 2e/3e wizards even more so. I will happily argue that I think wizards should go back to real Vancian prep-each-slot-per-day style casting, which is an even heavier decision burden. That said, warlocks and sorcerers have far fewer choices, and that set of choices changes less often.

But - that's caster to caster, and if someone wants to play a claymore-wielding melee type, their options are somewhat limited - unless they play a paladin, of course.

 

[ph0rk]

Of course, just as everything in dnd does. But you had made the claim that "athletics is a joke", and I feel I have effectively countered that criticism.

Put another way, how many other classes need to invest a proficiency just to open up one of the handful of combat maneuvers available to them? And how many tables treat athletics as fully replaceable with acrobatics for everything but the initiation of a grapple? One that can be defeated by a second level spell as an afterthought?

 

[tetrasodium]

I gave them the opportunity to tell me which half of that short spell list was 86'd. They didn't take it.

And this after they had already cherrypicked the encounter entirely on their terms.



No, and if you had actually read the post you quoted you'd get the point.

Playing a class like a wizard does not mean you have the absolutely best set of choices each and every time. In fact, sometimes you have the worst possible spell list for that encounter. This is the point.

Playing a fighter is like American Gladiator. Playing a Wizard is like Iron Chef.

That list would have taken 17 levels to accumulate & it was a level 7 test. When was the last time you ever heard of a wizard handing the gm their class spell list with a demand the GM tell them which spells will be useful on the adventure? Even the most overprepared 3.x scry & die didn;t have it as good as you seem to expect wizards to have it. do you

@Stalker0 I mentioned it mainly because Everyone in agreement with ph0rk in that thread along with ph0rk himself avoided it like the plague. NOting it seemed like a good way to check if it was still going on since it's been a couple days

 

[Xetheral]

In my experience the players would rather spin their wheels for an hour or more in game trying every single skill and pixelbitching to the ends of the earth rather than spent one spell slot they don't have to outside of combat that's not a preparation for later combat (mage armor) or to avoid combat during a rest (tiny hut).

If your casters aren't casting out-of-combat utility spells at your table, then why do the players of martial classes feel left behind in utility?

 

[Asisreo]

I think that even using specific monsters in the experiment is inherently “white-roomy”. Inherent in my post is using context clues to identify monsters, something that is lacking in a white room analysis.

What is the context for my wizard fighting them? This might provide context for resistances and immunities.

Where are we? If we are in say, Mt Celestia, this gives me an idea of the creatures and their likely abilities.

Was I aware that I might come across this type of monster? I might have performed research as to the likely defences of what I might face.

As a DM, do you allow knowledge checks for information about monsters? As a wizard, I’m likely trained in the appropriate knowledge skills.

How far away are they? This might impact my choices.

What is my goal? I might be able to trivially “win” the encounter by teleporting away or by evading the monsters.

Have I fought these monsters before or monsters of the same type? This might provide information about their abilities, immunities and tactics. As a level 17 spellcaster, I presume I have fought a large portion of the 11+ creatures in the monster manual.

Then I impart upon you context:

You've been on the run for a while because a previous adventure required you to travel to Sigil and retrieve the "Item of McGuffin" which is important because it has the power to move the plot forward but is otherwise a trinket.

This retrieval was explicitly a crime in the multiverse and after a few minutes of investigation, the trail leads to your group.

Now these two creatures appear and telepathically say "Return the McGuffin, you have committed crimes against the multiverse. Surrender yourselves."

Besides the descriptions, you know nothing about the creatures but I'll permit you to make an Intelligence skill check to know their lore. I'll let you have proficiency too at a DC 20. So you'd have around a 55% chance to figure out what type of creature it is. But its abilities are unknown to you anyways.

 

[Asisreo]

I gave them the opportunity to tell me which half of that short spell list was 86'd. They didn't take it.

And this after they had already cherrypicked the encounter entirely on their terms.

I don't know what 86'd means, if its referring to me, but I'm allowing any spells from the wizard's class list. You can also use the context I recently posted.

 

[Voadam]

Without looking in the MM

I would think the

Spoiler

Planetar as the #2 top celestial is a tough opponent with magic resistance, legendary resistance, and a couple energy resistances. No real obvious weak save to target either.

Therefore if I was alone I would go with a self buff like shapechange.

 

[ph0rk]

That list would have taken 17 levels to accumulate & it was a level 7 test.

Again, they got to pick which half of that list I did not have.

If they can't bother with that level of detail, they aren't sincerely engaging in the question - because that is exactly what the DM of a wizard must do, at every level up.

I don't need to engage in someone else's cherry picked whiteroom combat scenario to "prove" wizards are strong and flexible - because it is true.

On the contrary, someone who thinks that wizards are not strong and flexible needs to provide a wealth of such scenarios demonstrating that they are not.

It should be quite easy, if they are as weak as you claim.

 

[ph0rk]

I don't know what 86'd means, if its referring to me, but I'm allowing any spells from the wizard's class list. You can also use the context I recently posted.

This was in another thread, where I offered to meet Flamestrike halfway and they wouldn't engage; and I even offered to let them restrict the list. They wouldn't.


But, like I've stated here - the point isn't that the wizard always wins or always kills the monster first (though once we're at a tier that include force cage, wish, foresight, plane shift, and teleport, they probably have a pretty good win rate). It is that the wizard has the opportunity to approach the monster a different way each time; or at least a multitude of different ways - on a long enough time line they will run out of new combinations, but that is a very long time indeed. The fighter runs out of new options very quickly.

Some fighter builds are defeated by something as simple as a flying creature.