You know, honestly, I just read this thread from Page 1, and the very first thing that seemed to happen was that Thrudjelmer asked questions in a nonjudgmental way and Neo responded with "Oh, going right for the jugular," calling for support from everyone else against an attack that, really, wasn't actually an attack. I didn't see Thru's initial comments as rude at all, but they were perceived as such by others. Frankly, I agreed with a lot of Thru's comments. I don't have much use for a PL18 character. Most of the characters in the comics are either using hero points or under the effect of some plot device when they pull their once-in-a-lifetime super-feats, and Power Level inflation strikes me as fairly silly, most of the time.
Really, with a few notable exceptions, you can make anyone PL-anything and get away with it. Sure, you need to get Lifting capacity into the right neighborhood, and figure out how fast the guy can run/fly, but that's about it. Heck, I'd love to see somebody do Green Lantern with ranges from PL7 to PL17, getting more extras and power stunts as he goes along, and having more things he can do just off the cuff, and fewer things that he has to spend a hero point for. The hero points are important, and they're important to consider when building characters as well. Just because somebody bench-presses an airliner at the climax of an issue doesn't mean they can do that all the time -- it means that they used a huge amount of effort to do it that one time, and they're going to be fatigued thereafter (unless they use the aforementioned hero point).
Questions about Devices, Natural Ability scores, and so forth are hotly debated all over the M&M boards. Some people suggest strict requirements, like Thru is suggesting. Others use an informal "the power boosted their normal scores up, and THEN gave them Super-Powers" argument, which is closer to what Neo is using. Devices... Steve Kenson pretty much says "If it's not going to be a disadvantage regularly, it's not a flaw/weakness." Wolvie's admantium isn't a device, and neither is Venom's symbiote, since neither one gets taken away from them on a regular basis. They lose it for plot reasons, sure, but they're not disarmed in combat. On the other hand, classic Green Lantern gets his ring stolen a lot, or he finds himself tied up with his ring being held by the bad guy across the room. Definitely a Device flaw.
I personally disagree with many of the Quirk Weaknesses as well. I think that they're assigned too liberally based on a hero's personality. Again, a weakness is only a weakness if it's a disadvantage. "Driven to whack bad guys, such that I can never have a normal relationship with friends" sounds great for the Punisher, or even with Spidey, but it's not a good M&M weakness, because we're not playing "have a normal relationship with friends, the roleplaying game". We're playing a game where whacking bad guys and sacrificing your personal life to save the world are expected behavior. By the same token, being unwilling to kill isn't a weakness in a four-color campaign, where very few white-hat heroes kill people, and where such behavior is expected. It would qualify as a weakness in a grim & gritty cyberpunk-ish game, where your character was derided as a weird wimp for being unwilling to kill his foes once he's defeated them, despite the fact that all the "cool" heroes are doing so.
So, while I appreciate the effort hugely, there are some areas where I disagree with the conversion choices. They might be faithful representations based on your superior comic book expertise (and I freely admit that you've got more expertise, Neo, no question), but then again, they might not, based on how much can be done with Extra Effort (which seems to have been neglected in favor of power creep in some cases), flavor text, or roleplaying. And if it is a faithful representation, then which era and which author's version of that hero are you representing? As you noted, comics have an inevitable power creep. Why make a conversion that's at a PL that most people won't be able to use?
At this point, of course, everyone is screaming at each other, but please, read the earlier stuff and tell me if Neo doesn't sound just the slightest bit condescending. I'm not saying that he was condescending, but then, I'm saying that Thru wasn't initially rude until everyone stepped in to defend Neo from Thru's "going for the jugular"... which seemed to be a bit of an overreaction.
Really, with a few notable exceptions, you can make anyone PL-anything and get away with it. Sure, you need to get Lifting capacity into the right neighborhood, and figure out how fast the guy can run/fly, but that's about it. Heck, I'd love to see somebody do Green Lantern with ranges from PL7 to PL17, getting more extras and power stunts as he goes along, and having more things he can do just off the cuff, and fewer things that he has to spend a hero point for. The hero points are important, and they're important to consider when building characters as well. Just because somebody bench-presses an airliner at the climax of an issue doesn't mean they can do that all the time -- it means that they used a huge amount of effort to do it that one time, and they're going to be fatigued thereafter (unless they use the aforementioned hero point).
Questions about Devices, Natural Ability scores, and so forth are hotly debated all over the M&M boards. Some people suggest strict requirements, like Thru is suggesting. Others use an informal "the power boosted their normal scores up, and THEN gave them Super-Powers" argument, which is closer to what Neo is using. Devices... Steve Kenson pretty much says "If it's not going to be a disadvantage regularly, it's not a flaw/weakness." Wolvie's admantium isn't a device, and neither is Venom's symbiote, since neither one gets taken away from them on a regular basis. They lose it for plot reasons, sure, but they're not disarmed in combat. On the other hand, classic Green Lantern gets his ring stolen a lot, or he finds himself tied up with his ring being held by the bad guy across the room. Definitely a Device flaw.
I personally disagree with many of the Quirk Weaknesses as well. I think that they're assigned too liberally based on a hero's personality. Again, a weakness is only a weakness if it's a disadvantage. "Driven to whack bad guys, such that I can never have a normal relationship with friends" sounds great for the Punisher, or even with Spidey, but it's not a good M&M weakness, because we're not playing "have a normal relationship with friends, the roleplaying game". We're playing a game where whacking bad guys and sacrificing your personal life to save the world are expected behavior. By the same token, being unwilling to kill isn't a weakness in a four-color campaign, where very few white-hat heroes kill people, and where such behavior is expected. It would qualify as a weakness in a grim & gritty cyberpunk-ish game, where your character was derided as a weird wimp for being unwilling to kill his foes once he's defeated them, despite the fact that all the "cool" heroes are doing so.
So, while I appreciate the effort hugely, there are some areas where I disagree with the conversion choices. They might be faithful representations based on your superior comic book expertise (and I freely admit that you've got more expertise, Neo, no question), but then again, they might not, based on how much can be done with Extra Effort (which seems to have been neglected in favor of power creep in some cases), flavor text, or roleplaying. And if it is a faithful representation, then which era and which author's version of that hero are you representing? As you noted, comics have an inevitable power creep. Why make a conversion that's at a PL that most people won't be able to use?
At this point, of course, everyone is screaming at each other, but please, read the earlier stuff and tell me if Neo doesn't sound just the slightest bit condescending. I'm not saying that he was condescending, but then, I'm saying that Thru wasn't initially rude until everyone stepped in to defend Neo from Thru's "going for the jugular"... which seemed to be a bit of an overreaction.
