Massively Leveling Down a Monster?

[dragonwarriorfan]

So I am a fairly newbie DM running a sandbox Chaos Scar and one of the players casually mentioned it would be cool to fight a t-rex. I agreed. At first, I thought I would run it as a combat/skill challenge (think Colossus of Laarn), then I thought - why not a cool fight? In the end, I can give them the option to harvest its scales for armor/shields/bracers, etc.

The closest I can find is a Fang Titan Drake, level 18, which would for obvious reasons easily TPK my 2nd level PCs. Can anyone offer help on leveling him down to manageable but still an elite? The DM guide gives me some options, but not for a differential that large (15 levels!). Thanks in advance. I realize I probably shouldn't be trying to toss a t-rex at low level players, but why not?

Thanks in advance-

 

[AngryMojo]

Generally, huge sized monsters are all at least Paragon, and all at least Elite (unless they're mounts). There's nothing wrong with scaling it down a bit, but you do run into problems when you go that far.

Now, I would probably make a new monster about level 5 with attacks based on the T-Rex's stats. Not directly transcribed so much as inspired by. If you want, you can drop them down to Large and have them be a nest of baby T-Rexes.

Just don't give a huge creature threatening reach at that level. It will only lead to tears.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, I would recommend agaisnt downlevelling a monster by more than about 5 levels, and even more so by more than that and across a tier. Many upper tier monsters have powers and abilites that are rare at lower teirs - being able to stun, and do so more often, is probably the biggest one you need to look out for.

I would recommend instead taking a more level appropriate monster (say, a rage drake) and reskin it as a T-rex.

However, if you are dead set on using the Fang Titan drake, I would follow the DMG guidelines (except take care to bring damage within the guidelines set in the erratta), and then do whatever else is required to make it more level appropriate. For example, if it stuns as an at-will, make it an encounter power instead - especially if it is multitarget.

So, looking at the monster in monster builder, I would:
1. Apply the DMG guidelines for down levelling
2. Reduce the range of the furious roar to 5, and make it only available once as a free action when bloodied (rather than having it and then recharging at bloodied)
3. Decrease the frequency of its tail swipe
4. Get rid of the daze on his bite, or limit it to the only the person grabbed... at will daze isn't very level appropriate for a level 2 party.

I would also change the grabbing mechanic of his bite (doesn't make sense to be able to bite again with someone grabbed in its mouth, but it needs some sort of "munch" attack to make up for that), but that's not really a ballance issue.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is if you characters are going to run into a bunch of dinosaurs over their carreer, you may want to give some thought to explaining why the T-Rex they fought at level 2 could have been gored to death by the baby plant eater they face at level 10.

You also might want to make it a solo... I have a rough rule of thumb to account for higher/lower level creatures... if they face it and its a solo, 5 levels later it will be an elite, 10 later a normal monster, and 15 later a minion of the party appropriate level.

 

[Neonchameleon]

First, give them something to work up to And you don't want an elite, you want a solo at that level

Second, take a different but similar chassis. For instance the Fang Titan Drake has a roar, a bite, and a tail sweep. To me that sounds vaguely like a dragon (dragonfear, bite, and a tail sweep). Young Steel Dragon (level 7 solo) I'd suggest.

Then take away its breath and bloodied breath - but give it a bloodied roar (this is going to hurt). Wing scatter becomes tail lash (it walks rather than flies), claw becomes kick, and replace double attack with a bite and throw (the t-rex picks up the target in its mouth for normal bite damage, shakes it, and throws it - slid and prone (and slowed (save ends) once it's bloodied as well as the damage). Kill dragon's suggestion - you don't need it. It's probably worth replacing the stunned (save ends) to stunned (end of next turn) - and adding thunder damage equal to the old breath weapon.

Down level it to level 5 or so (i.e. only two levels) and start dropping hints so the PCs have spent a level or two building up to this fight. The build up and leaving them afraid will really help - if you give it to them straight away, they will feel it was too easy. And then mention at the bloodied roar it was a young one and they hear the answering roar of an adult.

 

[dragonwarriorfan]

Great suggestions - I hadn't even considered the major differences at play tiers in monsters. Though, I've only played in heroic. I think Neonchameleon's suggestions seem most in line with what I need, adding the other ideas about using babies (ahem, still Large!) which lets me put a bit of fear in the PCs. I could send a nice unstated warning, "look what ventured out of the deep Scar and this is only a baby. Perhaps you should stop trying to travel so deeply just yet without t-rex contingencies!"

The other idea I had was to let them fight it for a few rounds, doing massive damage, then let it escape, run, or making its demise a skill challenge - such as putting the fight near a cliff, a poisonous swamp, deadly plant or some other way of trapping the thing. In other words, still super scary, but a way of ending the fight if needed without a TPK. If I did something like that, could I count the experience as two encounters (the fight and the demise)?

 

[Saeviomagy]

The closest I can find is a Fang Titan Drake, level 18, which would for obvious reasons easily TPK my 2nd level PCs. Can anyone offer help on leveling him down to manageable but still an elite? The DM guide gives me some options, but not for a differential that large (15 levels!). Thanks in advance. I realize I probably shouldn't be trying to toss a t-rex at low level players, but why not?

First, I wouldn't down-level it by 15 levels if you want a memorable fight. You can probably do a 12 level reduction (making it level 6 vs level 2s). Make him a solo while you're at it.

Next, this guy is a controller so if you're running him solo he's actually going to be a lot easier than he's written as. Being stunned by his roar sucks, sure, but you're not going to be torn apart by (say) the other 4 fang titan drakes that accompany him.

That said, I hate stuns, and at low levels there's not much to let you escape them. Turn the stuns into dazes. I think the dazing bite is ok.

I actually think that's the only change needed apart from the number adjustments.

Oh, and he does NOT have threatening reach.

 

[Shin Okada]

If I were you, I will start from something of lower level. What you need is an appropriately leveled monster which bites (and maybe swallows). It is much easier, and makes a reasonable monster, than to massively leveling down a monster.

Description, origin and such are just skin. When you make an original monster's stats, you don't need to care much about those factors. Changing them does not change the combat capability of a monster.

Feymire Crocodile is a level 10 elite monster which do those 2 attacks. Starting from this will be much easier. Just re-skin it and change it's origin into natural. Mybe drop it's level by 3-5? Removing Swim speed doesn't affect much. Call it's aura as the effect of T-Rex's fearful presence. Regarding regeneration, use as it is and call that T-Rex is extremely tough.

As a note, I prefer to use slightly higher-leveled Elite than to use a Solo, even for a boss fight. Elites are tough enough. On the other hand, a Solo tend to kill a PC by round 2 (using action points on the first and the second round) then, become a sandbag.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think here are some good sugggestions, but i want to underline some things:

1. If you level down a monster by too many levels, you will create the expectations that everything can be killed by the party, no matter how dangerous it is...

2. Making it a level 14 solo to begin with. It has the same xp budget as a level 18 elite.

3. A level 14 solo is still too dangerous for a level 2 party. So maybe there are story reasons why it is even lower...
- Controlled by a mighty wizard and thus moving like a puppet and easierto hit and such.
- Badly hurt or ill
- A zombie version of it

Or: You can make something like an uber solo (reducing it by another 8 levels, giving more area attacks per round, etc.) and require your players to raise an army.

Or: You can make your players prepare a ritual that needs special components and many people to participate and they have to lure that monste into a trap. The ritual will then bind and weaken it and effectively reduce its level to a manageable level...