"Math glitch" -- explanation or pointer?

[Regicide]

Calling it a math problem is pretty simplistic. Saying that power bonuses don't grow is also simplistic. There are some clear benefits at higher level such as paragon class abilities, epic destiny abilities and so forth. There are better powers at high level, toss on stoneskin and while your defences may not be as high the end result is you're taking less damage. You'll have more get out of jail powers to avoid crits, more feats to pump damage and you'll have more encounter and daily powers and magic items and can still be using them 5 rounds into the fight instead of being left with at-wills after round 2.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not this again. ...
Here, listen and stop asking this question over and over again...

Why don't you reread the OP? And even then maybe you could just let people discuss whatever the hell they want to discuss. It's not really that hard to ignore threads that don't concern you.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You think it's intended that casters who can't use a weapon as an implement are worse off than those who can? Or that most of a character's heroic tier feats may be prechosen for them?

No, this is a sideeffect from fixing what ain´t broken and the nature of the power system.

And they just get transfer enchantment. Or make their own. Or give what they find in the party to those who can use it first, then work things from there. Or you're intentionally denying them treasure to make up for inadequacies in the feat system, which is also not a good thing..

So roll treasure up. Give it to the player who can use it best. Thats how it goes.

This has worked for ten years now. And never has anyone complained. One problem maybe now is that exotic weapons are not balanced by being more uncommon in treasure tables, but i bet i find a solution, and if i have to make treasure table myself.

Why? How is it any different to use a greatspear over a glaive? More, why are you tying mechanical gains to roleplaying effort? And if he chose glaive (not superior) and picked Heavy Blade Opportunity, would he need the same effort?

Great spear and weapon expertise glaive both cost a feat. both give a +3 bonus then.

Great spear can then be upgraded with expertise to +4, glaive can be upgraded with heavy blade opportunity which can be really usefull for defenders. But if dedicate yourself to a certain type of magic weapon, and you get the "wrong" magic weapon you need to do some roleplaying to fix it. At least you need to do some ritual to transfer the enchantment. And for the ritual you need components which you gain by roleplaying.

Where great spear may be the better option from a to-hit point of view, you can use heavy blade opportunity with a greatsword or a longsword and you can still be versatile.

Dedicating yourself to the greatspear, you have to use suboptimal weapons when greatspear is not a good option.

 

[Victim]

I previously thought that Epic-tier handled this growing gap between PC attack and critter defenses through the increasing bonuses granted by Leaders and utility powers.

For example: a 1st level strength-based Cleric's at-will grants one ally a +4 bonus to attack. Same Cleric, at 30th level, could to be granting a +9 bonus with the same power. So the fact that all 30th level PC attacks were at -3 relative to 1st level target number could have been compensated by the difference between +4 and +9.

However, such scaling attack bonuses may have been the exception, not the rule: new Leaders seem to give more static attack bonuses.

The Expertise line of feats is an admission that my thinking wasn't what WotC was working towards at all.

Cheers, -- N

The problem there is that's a negative feedback loop. The lower the base chance to hit, the less likely it is that the leader hits with the attack bonus power. So that bonus comes up less and less, even if it is big. And encounter set up powers are completely wasted if they miss in almost all cases.

Plus scaling attack bonuses were always the exception. Righteous Brand is the only scaling attack bonus power clerics have in the PHB (Plague of Doom is functionally similar as a scaling defense penalty); most of their attack bonus things are a small fixed bonus. Warlords have more, but their at will with an attack bonus is far more limited.

 

[KarinsDad]

Calling it a math problem is pretty simplistic. Saying that power bonuses don't grow is also simplistic. There are some clear benefits at higher level such as paragon class abilities, epic destiny abilities and so forth. There are better powers at high level, toss on stoneskin and while your defences may not be as high the end result is you're taking less damage. You'll have more get out of jail powers to avoid crits, more feats to pump damage and you'll have more encounter and daily powers and magic items and can still be using them 5 rounds into the fight instead of being left with at-wills after round 2.

Saying that the higher level PCs buffs and debuffs outweight the monster buffs and debuffs, the massive monster hit points, and the math issue is also simplistic.

 

[Stalker0]

Are people seeing this problem in play?

My campaign has gotten to level 8 and the only time there has been "too many" misses was when fighting level 8 soldiers at level 7 with +1 items. (At level 8 they got 3 better to hit, +1 extra from weapons, +1 from stat gain, +1 from level).

I generally throw equal leveled monsters at my party, and they don't seem to have too much trouble hitting.

I will say that there no AC defenses do seem very easy to hit, when my players hear I'm attacking non AC I start hearing the cries of auto hit and the like.

 

[keterys]

But if dedicate yourself to a certain type of magic weapon, and you get the "wrong" magic weapon you need to do some roleplaying to fix it. At least you need to do some ritual to transfer the enchantment. And for the ritual you need components which you gain by roleplaying.

The ritual costs like 25g... do you restrict it further than that, I take it?

Dedicating yourself to the greatspear, you have to use suboptimal weapons when greatspear is not a good option.

I assume the same applies to archers? Or wizards for any implement type? Rogues with sneak attack weapons.

Basically, that the person who doesn't spend all the feats but has relevant weapon restrictions (archer rangers, rogues, wizards, fighters, etc) is screwed as much so might as well specialize. And really the difference between the specialist and not is still going to be +1 at most, and likely just mean that they can't use the shiny until a convenient stopping point, such as between adventures. So compared to +2 attack, +2 damage, increased crit damage or brutal... yeah, totally worth it.

 

[Cadfan]

Regarding seeing it in play-

A typical slot machine pays out between 90 and 97 cents on the dollar. They can dip lower, but that gets the casino a bad rep so casinos usually set things higher.

You probably can't see the difference between even payout and 97 cents on the dollar unless you spend a whole lot of time at the slot machines.

But you're still losing money.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

25g in components But really, I don´t like the transfer enchantment Ritual. I was more glad with destroying and rebuilding, losing out +1 in the process...

Longbow are more common weapons than longspears. And I see no problem in upgrading weapons between adventures, if you can justify it. But it is a bit more effort.

 

[kaomera]

... yet both groups, those who had no trouble hitting and those who do have trouble hitting, now have equal access to Expertise feats.

I was thinking of the issue in terms of players who like the pre-Expertise math, and those who feel they are not hitting often enough. There's a lot of other issues that complicate the math, but I don't see the rules as directly addressing them. And even the math is subject to player expectations, there are obviously players who feel that the PHB1 math is fine, possibly even that any further bonuses just makes things too easy for them, and therefore less fun.

If you build your characters and play them "reasonably well" (and I don't think I can define that as a value) then you're going to hit a lot more often than not. And IMO if as a player you feel you're not hitting often enough, then I think it's reasonable to assume that you're going to go looking for options that will improve your attack bonus, and find the Expertise feats. The issue for me is more that I don't really want to be spending feats (or other options / resources) just keeping up.