D&D General Matt Colville on adventure length

[Hussar]

I'm fast, and other people get distracted.

But if you look at the expected levelling times (1 session for level 1 & 2, 2 for each thereafter), Lost Mine - levels 1-5 - should take 10 sessions. Ish.

Now consider how long AD&D adventures will take for your group!

Cheers,
Merric

Oh sure. Totally agree. I know I’m slow.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

All I can think of is

Spoiler: BRAWNDO THE STUFF PLANTS CRAVE

You literally used a reasonable statement to bring up and argue for the presence of a problem caused by how 5e's near guaranteed survival warps how some players handle PC death into something unhealthy and immediately turned around arguing against ticking the dial back with an adpopulum as the first last and only justification for preserving the warped expectations.

Yes, because it is current D&D that has the warped justifications.

I assume this means you are committed to never, ever using "it sells" as a justification for any design element in 5e ever again, then?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I just can't comprehend this. If there are no stakes,

Stop. Stop right there.

There are stakes. Those stakes are not death. Unless and until you can accept that that is a possibility, we will not be able to have a productive conversation.

and your character can never die, what is even the point of combat and dice rolling.

To experience challenge (because defeat ≠ death, because losses can be things other than losing your character, e.g. items, money, limbs, levels if that's your bag, values, face, personal quests, allies, homes...there is so much someone can lose.)

To permit branching story; after all, you should never roll to determine success if it isn't the case that both success and failure are interesting results.

To add tension, since you don't know whether any given roll will push things toward or away from success.

All the reasons, I should think, that apply with death, just...not actually death.

The entire game is built on success/failure with randomness intervening via dice. It seems impossible to have a success/success model.

Because it isn't one. Failure does not mean death. Lack of (permanent, random, irrevocable) death does not mean lack of failure.

If you cannot die, why use dice in combat at all? Just have everyone narrate cool scenes and move on with gameplay.

I already said why, above.

I like the thought of alternate styles of gameplay entering the 2024 DMG.

It really would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[cbwjm]

I don't think I'd like playing DnD as much if death wasn't on the table, even if there are plenty of ways to bring people back. The suspense of falling and seeing if the others can save you as well as hold off the enemy is a great part of the game.

I actually thought I was going to cause a TPK in a game I was DMing, or at least kill a couple of PCs, but my players managed to secure victory.

In a game that I was playing in, the PC who had rolled the best stats was the first to die, it was quite a surprise (especially for her PC). She rolled up another character that had a great concept to replace the fallen though.

I played a bunch of OSE games and never made it to level 2 , has some nice storylines lined up for the fallen, but oh well, they're dead now.

It's all well and good not wanting death as an option in the games you're playing, but it isn't for me.

 

[Maxperson]

I can get a used Expedition to Barrier Peaks on Amazon for $70, what does inflation say it should cost?

$70,000. No, wait. Never mind. That's groceries, not modules.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I just can't comprehend this. If there are no stakes, and your character can never die, what is even the point of combat and dice rolling

What’s the point in watching an action or superhero movie? We know the hero will win.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yeah, I'm definitely the kind of person who sees a challenge designed to be unbeatable and asks, "Okay so...what's the point? The conclusion is foregone." At least with Kobayashi Maru-type scenarios, there's a point to it being unbeatable: to teach a lesson, namely, that sometimes there are scenarios which do not have good solutions, so you must pick which bad consequence you are willing to deal with, or (as Kirk's cheating did) try to force a "third option" that transcends the limitations of the dilemma.

I mean… You kind of answered your own question there. The point of unbeatable challenges is to learn what the characters will do when faced with a scenario with no good solutions. The most interesting character moments are always when a character has to choose between undesirable outcomes, or between mutually-exclusive desirable outcomes. Those are the moments that reveal their most deeply held priorities.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I mean… You kind of answered your own question there. The point of unbeatable challenges is to learn what the characters will do when faced with a scenario with no good solutions. The most interesting character moments are always when a character has to choose between undesirable outcomes, or between mutually-exclusive desirable outcomes. Those are the moments that reveal their most deeply held priorities.

When the foregone conclusion is death, the only thing they will do is, y'know, rot.

And when the foregone conclusion of a reality TV show about trying to complete an obstacle course is that you lose, because it was intentionally designed to not be completable...what character moments does that display, exactly?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It's all well and good not wanting death as an option in the games you're playing, but it isn't for me.

Has anyone said it should be for you?

Lots and lots and lots of people have said, to one degree or another, that it shouldn't be for me. I have never, not once, said that it should be for anyone, let alone for everyone. I have argued that folks over-value death as a consequence, but that's quite a bit different from the "what you describe literally means NO consequences AT ALL, so you obviously can't be playing a game that actually has failure conditions" arguments.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The point of unbeatable challenges is to learn what the characters will do when faced with a scenario with no good solutions

Hack the computer.