Maxwell's Silver Hammer: On Spells, Design, and the feeling of Sameyness in 5e

[TwoSix]

@TwoSix @dnd4vr You can also dramatically pad out the spell lists using swordmeow's spells & things like Grimlore's Grimoire

I did think of that, actually (I have spells from both of them in my homebrew folder) but I don't have access (that I know of) to a delimited list of their spells, so I'd have to do the data entry manually.

 

[toucanbuzz]

….Why do you think Barbarians should be supernatural? Arguably, their origin and original "shtick" was that they were anti-supernatural (Conan, 1e Unearthed Arcana)….

If the defining factor for a barbarian is their brains or strength, or lack of culture, then they're simply a fighter with a particular physical attribute or background. But if it's supernatural, as many of the subtypes have been, they're a class that stands on its own, mixing ancient beliefs in the spirits into enhancing their abilities. They may shrug off arcane magic as unnatural even if their powers mimic such, believing the study of arts that don't come from the natural world or from the ancestors are likely brought to this world by demons to lure mortals to ruin.

Hence, I see them as more the ancient Celtic barbarians, oft depicted as wearing paint to mystically protect them in battle while fighting naked, or simply generic cultures drawing upon the spirits of their tribal animal or ancestors to imbue them with supernatural strength against enemies. Whereas Conan the "Barbarian" is a harder sell because in the books, he wears clothes of the region and armor, speaks several languages, and is "barbarian" in the ancient Greek/Roman sense of simply being someone who wasn't Greek/Roman and therefore less educated, not how I see the D&D barbarian. But, his "barbarian" supernatural nature perhaps draws from his freakish feats of strength and invoking Crom (who eventually intervenes to save him). Which, perhaps makes Conan a 10th level cleric...

Something like that.

 

[Frozenstep]

I've always felt sorcerers could do with using something like the spell point variant system to help feel different.

 

[Oofta]

If the defining factor for a barbarian is their brains or strength, or lack of culture, then they're simply a fighter with a particular physical attribute or background. But if it's supernatural, as many of the subtypes have been, they're a class that stands on its own, mixing ancient beliefs in the spirits into enhancing their abilities. They may shrug off arcane magic as unnatural even if their powers mimic such, believing the study of arts that don't come from the natural world or from the ancestors are likely brought to this world by demons to lure mortals to ruin.

Hence, I see them as more the ancient Celtic barbarians, oft depicted as wearing paint to mystically protect them in battle while fighting naked, or simply generic cultures drawing upon the spirits of their tribal animal or ancestors to imbue them with supernatural strength against enemies. Whereas Conan the "Barbarian" is a harder sell because in the books, he wears clothes of the region and armor, speaks several languages, and is "barbarian" in the ancient Greek/Roman sense of simply being someone who wasn't Greek/Roman and therefore less educated, not how I see the D&D barbarian. But, his "barbarian" supernatural nature perhaps draws from his freakish feats of strength and invoking Crom (who eventually intervenes to save him). Which, perhaps makes Conan a 10th level cleric...

Something like that.

I always assumed that many (if not all) barbarians sub-classes were supernatural. After all, some let you literally sprout wings and fly at higher levels, it doesn't get much more supernatural than that. But even at lower levels, adding con to AC only makes sense if you have super-hard pecs or supernatural protection.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[tetrasodium]

If the defining factor for a barbarian is their brains or strength, or lack of culture, then they're simply a fighter with a particular physical attribute or background. But if it's supernatural, as many of the subtypes have been, they're a class that stands on its own, mixing ancient beliefs in the spirits into enhancing their abilities. They may shrug off arcane magic as unnatural even if their powers mimic such, believing the study of arts that don't come from the natural world or from the ancestors are likely brought to this world by demons to lure mortals to ruin.

Hence, I see them as more the ancient Celtic barbarians, oft depicted as wearing paint to mystically protect them in battle while fighting naked, or simply generic cultures drawing upon the spirits of their tribal animal or ancestors to imbue them with supernatural strength against enemies. Whereas Conan the "Barbarian" is a harder sell because in the books, he wears clothes of the region and armor, speaks several languages, and is "barbarian" in the ancient Greek/Roman sense of simply being someone who wasn't Greek/Roman and therefore less educated, not how I see the D&D barbarian. But, his "barbarian" supernatural nature perhaps draws from his freakish feats of strength and invoking Crom (who eventually intervenes to save him). Which, perhaps makes Conan a 10th level cleric...

Something like that.

Rage, reckless attack, extra emphasis on con, fast movement / all weapon & armor prof, fighting styles, action surge, second wind, extra feats, extra attacks beyond just he second, etc. The two bring a lot of class specific stuff to the table that makes even a no/medium armor fighter with a greataxe different from a barbarian doing the same. not so with sorcerer


@Undrave While true, it would be a stretch to call those arctypes anywhere near as thematic or different from one another as the sorcerer ones, they mostly just put a late game cherry on top of the vestigial spell schools.

 

[Oofta]

How you doin'?

just for that ...

 

[CleverNickName]

I think point #4 in your original post is the one that hits home for me. Literally everything...from magic items to monk powers to 8-hour naps...is a magical effect. It was the hardest thing to get accustomed to when I started playing 5E...and even now, half a decade later, it still sticks in my craw every now and then.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think point #4 in your original post is the one that hits home for me. Literally everything...from magic items to monk powers to 8-hour naps...is a magical effect. It was the hardest thing to get accustomed to when I started playing 5E...and even now, half a decade later, it still sticks in my craw every now and then.

Long and short rests might have a place, but every spell, ability, magic item, etc is still using specific minutes/hours/etc so even changing those time periods is a huge mess.

 

[Undrave]

@Undrave While true, it would be a stretch to call those arctypes anywhere near as thematic or different from one another as the sorcerer ones, they mostly just put a late game cherry on top of the vestigial spell schools.

I don't disagree (though I love the Diviner's ability as far being a support power goes, it's really cool, and the Abjurer's ability to recharge their unique power when they cast in their school), but some people apparently like those darn school too much to leave them behind. LE SHRUG

Personally I would have made a single subclass called "School Specialist" or something and then created... I dunno "Tower Wizards" maybe? That would get ability inspired 4e Implement based class features: A Staff user that can boost his defense based on CON, a Wand Wizard that boosts accuracy based on DEX and an Orb wizard that boosts their DC based on CHA. the Staff user would get stuff like extra HP per level and control of their close bursts to fight at the front line, the Wand user would be best at Attack roll spells and the Orb would be best at imposing status. A bit less straight-jacketed than the school ones but with a clear play style implied.