May Daggermaster Nerf Rumour

[Dice4Hire]

Yes, at higher levels, a twin-striking character can get a lot of crits even with daggers (and daggers that deal nice d10 or d12 crits) but I can live with that mostly. Sorcerers using the PP makes no sense at all, and is very cheesy.

If it is changed to Rogue/DM only, that is fine, too. The Rogues can use a strong PP.

 

[interwyrm]

I might be ok with melee OR weapon attacks.

Sorcerers using blade channeling with daggermaster might be interesting and not *so* overpowered.

 

[Badapple]

I'd like it if it was crit with daggers on 19-20 in paragon, then 18-20 in epic.

Then leave it open to multiclassers.

 

[BobTheNob]

I still maintain that this is not enough. With a number of ways to get multiple attack rolls and other features to add dice to damage, the smaller d4 is largely inconsequential.

Yes and No on that one. Acknowledged that there is alot of ways to just keep stacking damage on to a critical roll, and multiple attacks just leverage it out.

But at the end of the day, When our fighter crits with his warhammer using a 3W attack, damage does start at 30 before extras are added on. Our dagger rogue starts at 12. I know its not an immense difference, but its the thing that makes me say dagger master is good rather than op. As soon as you allow it without the d4 restriction (as the sorc/dm does with implement powers) it goes ballistic, which is why its regarded as so cheesy.

 

[keterys]

If you're talking about a +4 bloodiron dagger with two-weapon opening and devastating critical, then the 18 point difference between 12 and 30 starts to get pale compared to the extra 10d10 critical damage and 1d4+20 second attack (with its own 15% chance to crit)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yup. Not only that but the dagger rogue isn't starting at 12. He's got a 2d8 SA striker damage input to that which is also maximized (he WILL have backstabber, and he WILL have SA on 99.5% of attacks). So the base damage for the rogue is actually 28 plus static mods. Of course the barb COULD be raging etc. Still, as Keterys just pointed out, there are a lot of scary things you can pile on top of that dagger and it isn't hard to see some pretty sick crit damage numbers on DM.

Really the reason I wouldn't MIND too much if it was cut back a notch is just that there are other interesting and reasonably effective rogue PPs, but you REALLY have to be a masochist to even look at them. DM is just that good.

 

[keterys]

The real silliness is something like a twin striking avenger.
47.8% chance that at least one of the two hands will crit (7.7% chance that both crit)
A crit spawns a free attack... which has its own 15% chance to spawn a free attack...

So, yeah, rogue weapon attacks only sounds good.

 

[mkill]

The real silliness is something like a twin striking avenger.
47.8% chance that at least one of the two hands will crit (7.7% chance that both crit)
A crit spawns a free attack... which has its own 15% chance to spawn a free attack...

So, yeah, rogue weapon attacks only sounds good.

It would be less silly if the free attack on crit would be limited to 1/round. This is where the errata should come in (to prevent the brokenness from starting again when someone comes up with a different way to reroll attacks)

 

[fireinthedust]

Boooo! Aw no! That was the whole them of Emral, my L4W PC. What the heck?! He's so non-optimized it's not funny; the PP was the way to make him playable vs. dead on sight.


@Dice4Hire: it's not silly, it's awesome! Who's side are you on? (bats gorgeous eyelashes at you, doe eyes, violin music)
Seriously, though, I think it's their physical secondary stat, and that being a sorcerer is... well, physical as well as charismatic. They're special with daggers, so it's focus on that over staffs.


I get it, but wow. I'd say Melee attacks, rather than Weapon. That allows fun times for Sorcerers as well as Rogues. More rather than less is a good thing.

 

[fireinthedust]

the PC in question, of course, is a Genasi Wild Mage-type sorcerer, so isn't *built* to be optimal. Especially not for melee, which is what I thought all the Daggermaster Crit-range came in from. Ranged could be a problem, sure, but less so melee.