D&D (2024) Maybe this is a bit late, but let's talk about Rogue's Niche, and What Rogue Should Be.

[Chaosmancer]

D&D has a whole chapter on Combat, no such chapter on non combat. And if you can have non-combat sessions, why would you say each class must be combative?

There are no chapters called "Using Ability Scores" (chap 7) or "Adventuring" (Chap 8) in your PHB? Good thing people are selling new ones, since yours seems to be damaged.

And, as for why I say every class must be able to contribute in combat, it is for the same reason I say every class must be able to contribute out of combat. Because sitting on your hands waiting and watching other people play the game is boring. Additionally, combat is high-stakes. Every single combat ends with either death or capture. Meanwhile, if you botch things in the social pillar, you can recover or continue with the mission. You could have penalties as light as "I made a fool of myself" which is far down the totem pole from "I got myself and all my friends killed and we had to start a new campaign".

Not sure what the pillars are....but is every class competent in all pillars in 5E? In any group activity there will be times you must wait. The D&D focus on "you must roll a d20 each round and have combat" is a flaw.

Wait... what? How do you not know about the three pillars of play? That is really basic stuff, especially if you are going to be critiquing combat.

The three pillars are "Exploration", "Combat" and "Social". And as for everyone being competent in all of them... well we are getting a LARGE boost in that direction with the new skill utility being offered for Fighters and Barbarians, and the improved combat capability of a few classes like the monk.

As for "everyone must wait at some point", well, yes and no. Sure, everyone needs to wait for other people to take their turn or perform an action. But I literally had the experience of putting a party with a barbarian in a puzzle, specifically telling the barbarian things they could do to help solve the puzzle, and them checking out because there was nothing they could do. I also have dealt with a few people who insisted on playing pacifists who do not fight. I've seen how badly cutting people off entirely from a pillar can go, because they stop trying to play the game. And playing the game is the point of the game.

Different Strokes...

It does not matter if the attack is ranged.

You seem to have missed the point on both counts. Also, if it doesn't matter if the attack is ranged, then how is Han Solo not a fighter from all of the firefights he has been on? He has literally led at least two missions that ended in massive firefights where he fought soldiers. I believe most reliably counts are 30 confirmed kills in the original trilogy. That is a fairly significant number of people he fought.

And James Bond, for example...is a 20th level character too...

No he isn't. Not even close. James Bond never gets "more skilled" in any of the movies, and he has repeatedly been shown getting beaten by henchmen like "Mr. Hinx" or "Oddjob" who are just... really strong men.

The only reason to even conceive that Bond is 20th level, is because he is a famous spy, but I don't even know if his own fictional universe paints him as the best spy, and I can with certainty that there are better spies in other media.

Well, not in 5E, as the Super Attack is a waste of an ability. I'd pick a spellcaster so I can have sneaky spy abilities...not doing massive damage.

I have no concept of what you mean by "the super attack". And you want to build a mage spy, that is fine, but that doesn't capture the spy archetype to most people.

This is a big problem with a lot of modern movies: Characters are born demigods. If she is 16, then she should be weak, unexperienced, and not so great. The idea that she learned everything about everything as a kid is just silly.

... Video game, not a movie. And she isn't a demigod. She IS weak and inexperienced. The game is about her growing. But she is also a rich british woman, she took up sports and is athletic, she has a high level of education. She is a protagonist, but she isn't a Mary Sue.

The "Every player wants to be the special chosen one" is yet another problem.

And has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is "fictional characters not written for DnD are not written to fit into DnD classes in neat little packages"

 

[Chaosmancer]

5e however has two weird things that to me seriously undermine the long term feels:

1. Ultra-tough rogues thanks to Uncanny Dodge
2. Rogues who take a minimum of both risk and effort to do rogue things (you just need one ally next to the foe)

What I want to feel as a rogue is that I'm dancing on the edge. As in almost every edition I am very effective at taking out foes - but to do it I'm taking risks and outthinking the foe. The 4e rogue gave me that in spades (including the skill focus) but the 5e rogue is too tough and too easy to get their advantages with.

The platonic ideal of a rogue to me is Justice League Batman - seriously overmatched and can barely take a slap from most Justice League foes, but incredibly smart and dangerous, operating from the shadows, and when he strikes it's a game changer.

If only skills were worth more...

If only skills options were worth anything compared to spells.

I agree that is a fine narrative for the rogue, but as a mechanical reality, a class that can't easily recover from a risky manuever, and needs to take those manuevers or outthink the enemy is a class that is going to have a low approval rating.

It sounds great, if you are the type of tactically minded person who can constantly outmanuever the DM and have spent entire weeks thinking up battle plans. It is less great when you are exhausted from a 48 hour work week, three doctors appointments, a car emergency, and are struggling to remember why you are even in the Temple of Fathomless Evil, let alone outthink the multiple, genius level opponents your DM has thrown at you.

I like the Rogue being presented as outsmarting the enemy.
I don't like the player needing to outsmart the DM to make the rogue work.

I think we are currently good in terms of combat on that line. Skills may need a little work to get them perfected.

 

[bloodtide]

Yes, why EVER would D&D players want to emulate the vast majority of fiction protagonists when they could be playing nobodies who throw themselves into endless meatgrinders to eventually earn third level maybe a name? (not as in reputation, as in "Well, fighter #14 made it third, lets name him a real name now.)

The tale as old as time. If everyone jumpped off a bridge, whould you do that too? Sure a lot of people would...just look at the internet: someone dumps some icewater on themselves....and people everywhere do it.

And yes, way too many modern fiction use "you are the super awesome Chosen One". This is not a good thing.

This is absolutely one of my biggest pet peeves. The idea that PCs shouldn't be special. That they should be any Tom, Dick or Sally that managed to pick up a sword or wand. That Luke, Han, and Leia should have just been a random farmboy, smuggler, and senator rather than have destinies tied to the most powerful villains in galaxy. That PCs should just be Pete on Deadpool's X-Force. No thank you. I'm a random nobody in real life, I'd like to pretend to be someone special when I play pretend, thank you very much!

Well, sure Luke and Lea are Force Demigods created by the Force......but Han is just an Everyman. Really, that is the whole point of Han's character.

And there is nothing wrong with playing as a "Chosen One" in D&D. But is it not odd that the rules are so generic? Like you make a character...that just just like all the other characters. Every character has the same abilities by class and are all the same. You would think that if D&D was some sort of Epic Chosen Hero game they would have a more focused character creation so each charterer was 100% unique.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well in part because it is a team game which makes it impossible to have "a chosen one" when there are 4 or more players.

This is why I think the current class imbalance works in favor of the game. By mixing powerful classes with weaker classes and adding in rolling for abilities you can easily end up with a "chosen one" in the party. This makes the story better with there being a chosen one and a bunch of supporters.

No, having a "Chosen One" and a bunch of supporters DOESN'T make a better story. It can make a different story, and if everyone sits down and decides that they WANT that style of story, it can be fun. But the 5-Man Band exists for a reason, and it isn't because the chosen lord and his retainers is a better story.

Also, it isn't even difficult to make a group of people who are full of special protagonist juice. Aurora by Red has a Godly Avatar given Sentience, the Chosen of a Primordial being, a hypermage who got infected with a DIFFERENT primordial being of destruction, and a person with the ability to turn into the embodiment of fire (no idea if that is ANOTHER primordial yet). Sure, they have a mortal "average" dude, who is hyper-tough, regenerates, and is a great thief. He is also the only character with common sense, considering most of the rest of the cast invovles hermits, scholars, and people born last month.

This is not a difficult thing to do. Heck, the Justice League as a concept is exactly like this. A collection of Protagonists banding together to defeat greater foes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Its not that they aren't special, unique chosen ones, they ALL special unique chosen ones. Almost every X-Man has, at some time, either been fated to save or end the world. And the Justice League, OH BOY, each one of them has been fates chosen more than a dozen times in modern history. The JL and X-Men work because they are ALL special, and everyone gets a moment to shine, tell their story, and move on. D&D should work like that. Bob's fighter wants to avenge his father? Then at some point the plot is going to put the six-fingered man in a position of power for the Bob to fight him! Susie want's to find the lost gem of power? Well wadda know, the lost gem of power is key to solving the current problem the PCs are having!

See, too many DMs don't want to actually incorporate a PCs's backstory, history, goals, and desires into play. That's a lot of work. If PCs are tabula rasa, springing up from the ground to only accomplish what the DM has prepped (or better, to play in the sandbox the DM has built and never go outside the lines) then the work is so much easier. Destinies muddy water because they mean not any old character can solve the issue. Special PCs need special consideration; common PCs pop up whenever and wherever a PC is needed and only care about what's in front of them. Because to be an edgy rogue who was orphaned, kidnapped by a strange assassin's cult, escaped and is now being hunted by the cult lest the PC dilvuge their secrets is a lot of work; an edgy rogue who just meets up with the other PCs and decides to explore the Sunless Citadel is far easier on the DM...

This. Exactly this.

Except, I WANT those backstories. IT is half the reason I don't run modules. I have an Eberron PbP I'm running right now, and the villain plan was... vague and kind of weak. Then the PCs gave men backstories. One has a family that was murdered by a mysterious faction, the other has a debt to a shadowy priest of an evil god.

Now? Now I have ideas, and the game is made better because I have hooks to make the players invested, to make them crave to know what happens next, and to push forward against these threats that THEY created.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The tale as old as time. If everyone jumpped off a bridge, whould you do that too? Sure a lot of people would...just look at the internet: someone dumps some icewater on themselves....and people everywhere do it.

Okay, you need to step real careful here my friend. Because if you are referring to the Ice Bucket Challenge, you likely never actually paid any attention to that challenge.

"The Ice Bucket Challenge, sometimes called the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge, is an activity involving the pouring of a bucket of ice water over a person's head, either by another person or self-administered, to promote awareness of the disease amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS, also known as motor neuron disease or Lou Gehrig's disease) and encourage donations to research."

I won't say that there are not people who do dumb things just because they saw someone else do it. That happens, especially with dumb teenagers who do things like make donuts with their cars. But you need to be able to differentiate between "people are doing this dumb thing for attention" and "people are doing something to get attention FOR A GOOD REASON"

And yes, way too many modern fiction use "you are the super awesome Chosen One". This is not a good thing.

Do they? John Wick isn't a Chosen One. The last "Chosen One" story I read the Chosen One was a Troll who died saving the life of the woman he loved, who had shot him in the face. And his story was not one of being "awesome" though he was nigh-unkillable and incredibly deadly... cause Troll.

The vast majority of modern stories aren't about Chosen Ones, and more about "the person who figured this out". Like, if you want to tell a story about the man who founded an empire... he is going to be the first emperor. It is just the nature of the story. The story about "humanities strongest warrior" will be about... humanities strongest warrior.

 

[bloodtide]

And, as for why I say every class must be able to contribute in combat, it is for the same reason I say every class must be able to contribute out of combat. Because sitting on your hands waiting and watching other people play the game is boring. Additionally, combat is high-stakes. Every single combat ends with either death or capture. Meanwhile, if you botch things in the social pillar, you can recover or continue with the mission. You could have penalties as light as "I made a fool of myself" which is far down the totem pole from "I got myself and all my friends killed and we had to start a new campaign".

And D&D puts Combat on this high pillar and it makes the problem.

Wait... what? How do you not know about the three pillars of play? That is really basic stuff, especially if you are going to be critiquing combat.

I'm an Old School Player, I don't really know all the buzz words...and even more so the "new spin" on everything.

The three pillars are "Exploration", "Combat" and "Social". And as for everyone being competent in all of them... well we are getting a LARGE boost in that direction with the new skill utility being offered for Fighters and Barbarians, and the improved combat capability of a few classes like the monk.

Well, just give everyone "Add 1d6" per level to all rolls and that should cover it, right?

As for "everyone must wait at some point", well, yes and no. Sure, everyone needs to wait for other people to take their turn or perform an action. But I literally had the experience of putting a party with a barbarian in a puzzle, specifically telling the barbarian things they could do to help solve the puzzle, and them checking out because there was nothing they could do. I also have dealt with a few people who insisted on playing pacifists who do not fight. I've seen how badly cutting people off entirely from a pillar can go, because they stop trying to play the game. And playing the game is the point of the game.

It works the other way too. The combat lovers are just the loudest voices. Other players like other things. And some players don't like combat at all.

You seem to have missed the point on both counts. Also, if it doesn't matter if the attack is ranged, then how is Han Solo not a fighter from all of the firefights he has been on? He has literally led at least two missions that ended in massive firefights where he fought soldiers. I believe most reliably counts are 30 confirmed kills in the original trilogy. That is a fairly significant number of people he fought.

I'm sure I said that Han is a fighter multiclass.

No he isn't. Not even close. James Bond never gets "more skilled" in any of the movies, and he has repeatedly been shown getting beaten by henchmen like "Mr. Hinx" or "Oddjob" who are just... really strong men.

Right? James Bond is shown...in most movies...a the "peak" of his career. And that is high level super spy...he does not gain much in abilities even when he rarely levels up. And that he often loose fights proves my point: James Bond is a Rogue/Fighter, something like 10/5. He can fight, and hold his own sometimes...but any 'pure' fighter will out match him.

The only reason to even conceive that Bond is 20th level, is because he is a famous spy, but I don't even know if his own fictional universe paints him as the best spy, and I can with certainty that there are better spies in other media.

Well, each IP is it's own universe, so you can't really compare. The vast majority of fictional characters are "high level" because: it's cool. And most fiction follows the Rule of Cool.

I have no concept of what you mean by "the super attack". And you want to build a mage spy, that is fine, but that doesn't capture the spy archetype to most people.

Guess that depends on most people? I'd much rather have a spell that can copy a secret scroll then just jump into combat to do damage. The spy is the one sneaking into the backroom, getting in the safe and coping that secret scroll. The spy is not jumping on the back of a dragon to stab it with the massive damage attack!

... Video game, not a movie. And she isn't a demigod. She IS weak and inexperienced. The game is about her growing. But she is also a rich british woman, she took up sports and is athletic, she has a high level of education. She is a protagonist, but she isn't a Mary Sue.

Well, you said she was all experienced and powerful, right? The game? is not a Zero to Hero game right?

And has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is "fictional characters not written for DnD are not written to fit into DnD classes in neat little packages"

True.

 

[Remathilis]

The tale as old as time. If everyone jumpped off a bridge, whould you do that too? Sure a lot of people would...just look at the internet: someone dumps some icewater on themselves....and people everywhere do it.

And yes, way too many modern fiction use "you are the super awesome Chosen One". This is not a good thing.

Nice Badwrongfun.

Goodbye.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The discussion was talking about damage builds.

Which ain't coming from 3e feats.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The tale as old as time. If everyone jumpped off a bridge, whould you do that too?

Is it fun?

Does it let me do a sweet backflip on the way down?

Does it allow me to avoid 'combat as fail state'?

Then sign me up!