D&D (2024) Maybe this is a bit late, but let's talk about Rogue's Niche, and What Rogue Should Be.

[tetrasodium]

I'd like you to introduce my titular 3e rogue who casually did 1d10+5d6 slashing and piercing plus 1d4 DEX damage on sneak with the bastard sword* he was allowed to use with sneak vs the sad 2d6+1.5STR the fighter was struggling to do.

And this is before enchanting the Last Kiss to Merciful, which means the fighter's job is coup de gracing all the knocked out guys in my wake.

That's a pretty weird fighter build or you are either comparing a 9th level* rogue to a first level fighter or a 9th level fighter who somehow spent none of the nine(?) feats it has on stuff that improve it's capabilities in dealing damage. Are you comparing a DPR focused rogue to a fighter designed to be indestructible or something?

If it's not a level 9 rogue to a level 1 fighter comparison, what did the fighter spend all of their feats on or what PrCs did they take? At those levels it wouldn't be uncommon for a fighter to be dealing like 60-80+ damage most rounds.
*5d6 sneak took level 90

 

[Remathilis]

whereas some people want their character's achievements to be because of their own hard work and effort, not because they're a nepo-baby of destiny.

it's really really satisfying to win knowing the universe was rigged for you all along. /s

Destiny =/= no effort. Protagonists earn their victories. Just because Luke was the son of a powerful Jedi does not mean he walked right in and won. He trained, suffered setbacks and overcame obstacles. He was just unique in that fate picked him to do it.

And being special does not make everyone else inferior. Everyone in the Justice League is special. So is everyone on the X-Men. Nobody is outshined, even when Superman or Phoenix is on the team.

Listen, you want to be a no name rando who just happened to be in the tavern when a group of people decided to raid the Caves of Chaos, be my guest. But don't tell me D&D is wrong for allowing people to actually play extraordinary people with extraordinary stories. There is a reason Baldur's Gate makes you a Bhaalspawn/mind flayer infected instead of just a dude who walked out his door to go fight goblins over day...

 

[Vaalingrade]

That's a pretty weird fighter build or you are either comparing a 9th level* rogue to a first level fighter or a 9th level fighter who somehow spent none of the nine(?) feats it has on stuff that improve it's capabilities in dealing damage.

Have you met 3e feats?

It's things like 'Don't completely suck at grappling', or 'be slightly better at will saves'. We're nto talking about the PF1 catalog here.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Not to have our class reverted 40 years and have all the cool action hero stuff we can do taken away to enhance boring trapspringing/door opening duties for a playstyle that was basically outmoded before we ever started playing.

Also, we don't wan t magic. Let us stab things to death and do sweet backflips without hand jiving and speaking in togues like a robey boy.

At this point I'd mention that the classic thief/ pre-name level monk relationship is similar to wizard/sorcerer - and that the casters have moved in on a lot of the territory.

 

[Chaosmancer]

i wasn't saying reduce combat purely to being fail state but lessen the amount that it's treated as the primary intended state of play and method of resolution, recognise that combat is a strong drain on resources and often a more inefficent use of those resources compared to their out of combat uses, punching a demon's teeth in can still be part of the adventure but recognise that it'll be better for your characters in that fight if they haven't had to slog their way through a half-dozen encounters before that

Ah, okay. That makes far more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Destiny =/= no effort. Protagonists earn their victories. Just because Luke was the son of a powerful Jedi does not mean he walked right in and won. He trained, suffered setbacks and overcame obstacles. He was just unique in that fate picked him to do it.

And being special does not make everyone else inferior. Everyone in the Justice League is special. So is everyone on the X-Men. Nobody is outshined, even when Superman or Phoenix is on the team.

Listen, you want to be a no name rando who just happened to be in the tavern when a group of people decided to raid the Caves of Chaos, be my guest. But don't tell me D&D is wrong for allowing people to actually play extraordinary people with extraordinary stories. There is a reason Baldur's Gate makes you a Bhaalspawn/mind flayer infected instead of just a dude who walked out his door to go fight goblins over day...

the thing is, nobody in the League or X-men are special unique chosen ones (as far as i am aware of, but knowing comics there's probably actually six-dozen prophecies and chosen ones amongst them and the superbeings like superman and wonderwoman really skews things) they might have abilities and powers but those aren't the same things as Having Destinies or Being Fated to be heroes.

would the trilogy of really changed all that much if luke HAD just been the no-name moisture farmer from a backwater sand planet who could bullseye whomp-rats and vader HAD just killed his father like he had initially been led to believe? (barring the plot beats that explicitly happen BECAUSE he was vader's son)

 

[Chaosmancer]

My solution was to boost Dex Fighter or create a new class.

But how far behind is a Rogue with Vex Rapier and Nick Scimitar from a Fighter with a Vex Rapier and Nick Scimitar?

Well, you might need to engage in some VERY hard math to figure out vex, because that is complicated, but if we look at raw damage with no accuracy... Let's say 5th level, +4 mod, ignore that the two-weapon fighting feat is needed.

(1d8+4)+(1d8+4)+(1d6+4) = avg 24.5 for the fighter (extra attack, nick attack)
(1d8+4)+(1d6+4)+(3d6) = avg 26.5 for the Rogue (attack, nick, sneak attack)

I could try and figure out the accuracy, but with Vex and the ability for the Rogue to hide for advantage on an attack, and the fighter getting two opportunities to apply Vex, I feel like they will be close enough. Rough paper math has me on 14.7 for the fighter and 18.42 for the Rogue.

Level 11? Not changing any of the mods

(1d8+4)+(1d8+4)+(1d8+4)+(1d6+4) = avg 33 for the fighter (extra attack x2, nick attack)
(1d8+4)+(1d6+4)+(6d6) = avg 37 for the Rogue (attack, nick, sneak attack)

And doing the same accuracy rough, that is 19.8 for the fighter and 27.24 for the rogue...

...
....

Now, I know I just did these quickly, but isn't it looking like the Rogue does MORE damage than the fighter with the same equipment? And doesn't your entire argument hinge on them being WORSE than the fighter with the same equipment?

The part Rogue players have to suck up is

A damage-build D&D Rogue will never outdamage a damage-build D&D fighter outside of 4e.
The designers will never allow it. Because D&D is not a videogame with no OOC.

But... I just proved that they did if they are dual-wielding. So is the real argument that they can't out-damage PAM+GWM+Charger? Because... yeah, of course they won't. Multiple feats boosting your damage versus no feats boosting your damage won't work for you.

 

[tetrasodium]

Have you met 3e feats?

It's things like 'Don't completely suck at grappling', or 'be slightly better at will saves'. We're nto talking about the PF1 catalog here.

The discussion was talking about damage builds.

 

[Remathilis]

the thing is, nobody in the League or X-men are special unique chosen ones (as far as i am aware of, but knowing comics there's probably actually six-dozen prophecies and chosen ones amongst them and the superbeings like superman and wonderwoman really skews things) they might have abilities and powers but those aren't the same things as Having Destinies or Being Fated to be heroes.

would the trilogy of really changed all that much if luke HAD just been the no-name moisture farmer from a backwater sand planet who could bullseye whomp-rats and vader HAD just killed his father like he had initially been led to believe? (barring the plot beats that explicitly happen BECAUSE he was vader's son)

Its not that they aren't special, unique chosen ones, they ALL special unique chosen ones. Almost every X-Man has, at some time, either been fated to save or end the world. And the Justice League, OH BOY, each one of them has been fates chosen more than a dozen times in modern history. The JL and X-Men work because they are ALL special, and everyone gets a moment to shine, tell their story, and move on. D&D should work like that. Bob's fighter wants to avenge his father? Then at some point the plot is going to put the six-fingered man in a position of power for the Bob to fight him! Susie want's to find the lost gem of power? Well wadda know, the lost gem of power is key to solving the current problem the PCs are having!

See, too many DMs don't want to actually incorporate a PCs's backstory, history, goals, and desires into play. That's a lot of work. If PCs are tabula rasa, springing up from the ground to only accomplish what the DM has prepped (or better, to play in the sandbox the DM has built and never go outside the lines) then the work is so much easier. Destinies muddy water because they mean not any old character can solve the issue. Special PCs need special consideration; common PCs pop up whenever and wherever a PC is needed and only care about what's in front of them. Because to be an edgy rogue who was orphaned, kidnapped by a strange assassin's cult, escaped and is now being hunted by the cult lest the PC dilvuge their secrets is a lot of work; an edgy rogue who just meets up with the other PCs and decides to explore the Sunless Citadel is far easier on the DM...

 

[tetrasodium]

the thing is, nobody in the League or X-men are special unique chosen ones (as far as i am aware of, but knowing comics there's probably actually six-dozen prophecies and chosen ones amongst them and the superbeings like superman and wonderwoman really skews things) they might have abilities and powers but those aren't the same things as Having Destinies or Being Fated to be heroes.

Probably was that many prophecies & such. More importantly is that the foes those superheroes battled were just as if not more capabble than them. Often those foes were so capable that the entire party needed to work together to the utmost frayed ends of their capabilities
spoiler="perfect example"]
[/spoiler]

There were also things like the multi-comic spanning flashpoint & injustice timeline when superman shatters all restraint to go full omniman while deciding that accepting the world of cardboard allows him to fix it. It's notable because the group comes together to handle the former teammate turned biggest baddest bbeg.