D&D (2024) Maybe this is a bit late, but let's talk about Rogue's Niche, and What Rogue Should Be.

Yeah basically, if you set DC's based on expecting non-Rogues to be able to succeed, the Rogue's benefits trivialize most ability checks. If you set DC's based on only expecting Rogues to be able to succeed, then Rogues become a must-have, which is contrary to 5e's design, which expects almost any party configuration to be able to equally contribute, so nobody ever feels forced to play a given class (how well 5e meets that design goal I won't comment on at the moment).

Starfinder ran into this very problem with their Operative class- having an Operative in the party mostly made anyone else using skills kind of irrelevant. You ask for a DC 15 check and this guy is like "uh...35. No, 36" (some hyperbole, but not much).

I mean, think about this. By Tier 3, a Rogue can potentially have a skill bonus of +13 and Reliable Talent says they can't possibly roll less than a 23. I once played a Rogue with Perception Expertise who owned a Robe of Eyes in AL, and the DM just kind of threw up his hands any time there was a hidden thing or enemies who were intended to ambush the party. An encounter with invisible Duergar assassins got turned inside out.

My friend was tellling me about a character in Critical Role who took Observant and had a passive Perception in the 30's (I don't know how accurate this is, but it's not impossible to do).

You can suddenly find entire sections of the game removed from most play if you don't scale the game to the Rogue's level. But rather than step back from that ledge, many other classes are purportedly being buffed to be able to occasionally reach these heights in 2024.

Expertise is simply put, the bane of the skill system.

The Rogue really shouldn't have "skill use" as their hat, if that means they are "so good at skills it's basically their system, and other classes are sometimes allowed to play too".

What I suggest is that the Rogue be allowed to do more with skills than other classes. Using Stealth to hide where others can't, being able to climb along ceilings, and so on. We see a little of this with the Thief, who can, for example make skill checks in record time, like opening a lock or disabling a trap with a bonus action (!), which runs right into the DM's declaration of how long it takes to perform said actions (forcing them to either allow the Rogue superhuman speed or nerf the Thief's ability).

Also, there should be more combat uses of skills, so that the Rogue has other interesting things to do than shoot a crossbow. They should be proficient in all manner of thrown weapons like acid, oil, holy water. Able to spread caltrops and spill marbles more efficiently. Handing out potions with bonus actions! Actually using and setting traps! Their stealth shouldn't be trivialized by some special sense, allowing them to actually skulk about (and definitely shouldn't be trivialized by pass without trace). Rogues should be able to hide in plain sight, throw flash powder, and not need a ring of invisibility to actually function effectively.

The Rogue will get some neat things to do with their Sneak Attack dice in 2024, but as long as the most effective status effect is dead, and thus making damage king, the Rogue is going to be in a rough position if they aren't main damage dealers.
I didn't play starfinder long enough to see (or remember) issues with the operative over a couple isolated low level one shots. It could just be a don't see it much at level 1-5ish issue, but a lot of this comes down to 5e breaking the skill system by being too condensed and having only attrib+pb+(maybe expertise/advantage). It wasn't such an issue in the past if rogue wanted to be an idiot savant lockpick or whatever because the rogue niche has to balance the need for regularly investing in a wide array of skills.

It goes back to the point made in post 20 about 5e's skill system coming together in ways that created some of those problems.
 

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combat "mini-game" is in most campaigns well over 50% of the things people do and in some it's well over 90% so we cannot just brush that aside.
I don't want to brush it aside, but it's become of far too much importance in the game in the discussions I see. Sadly, it's not so much the fault of the designers but of the player base who no longer look at D&D as a story of exploration and interaction, but of the urge to set up "cool set piece battles" in a poor attempt to imitate the thrill of FPS and MMORPG action or even action movies. And D&D's game pace is just too slow for that sort of thing.

I myself have been fighting for years to try and go back to more abstract combat to lessen its grip on the game and stop trying to emulate every swing and riposte. And as I look over my own custom rules, I can say I've failed at it - but I heartily wish the game had more structure and advice to emphasis and build out the other two pillars, rather than treat them as has-beens. The problem is, I don't know rightly how to do that without abandoning D&D and go find a system that does do that better, and it frustrates me - especially when it come to the Rogue. Subclasses like the Inquisitive, Mastermind and Thief I feel like people should be drooling over, rather than jumping for the subclasses that give more damage. Most of all, it's crazy that the best all-around subclass seems to be the Arcane Trickster, where magic is used to bypass the skill system wherever you can.
 

A vital or important skill check is not supposed to be gated behind the Rogue's (or Bard or Ranger) Expertise in 5e.
To be fair, generally you don't want to gate anything behind skill checks. There's a bonus if you succeed, or a penalty if you fail.

If you want to put the boss of the dungeon behind a secret door that requires an Investigation check, then you need to be aware of the possible outcome that the party fails the check and doesn't fight the boss.
 

Hot take:

The Rogue is not a Martial. It is a skills class.​


That's kind of the problem, isn't it. You make the Rogue a good class across all levels by making the things it's good at be more significant at higher levels. Not just slightly higher numbers on things that you've been doing since 1st level, but actual abilities that make sense both thematically and for the level of the character. It's not as if it hasn't been done before, as far back as 2e there was the High-Level Campaigns book with special abilities for characters above a certain (rather high) level. At least suggest what sort of things a high-rank in a skill should deliver that aren't available at 1st level.
 

I am not really a fan of classes having a niche, but if you want to call out one for the Rogue as a class it is flexibility.

Wth average rolls, the Rogue can really excel at the one of the two non-combat pillars while still being ok at the other non-combat pillar and at ok at combat and they can do this without any spells.

No other class can manage that. Bards and Rangers can approximate it if you take subclasses and/or spells into account, but only the Rogue can do it on class mechanics alone, without spells.
 
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That's kind of the problem, isn't it. You make the Rogue a good class across all levels by making the things it's good at be more significant at higher levels. Not just slightly higher numbers on things that you've been doing since 1st level, but actual abilities that make sense both thematically and for the level of the character. It's not as if it hasn't been done before, as far back as 2e there was the High-Level Campaigns book with special abilities for characters above a certain (rather high) level. At least suggest what sort of things a high-rank in a skill should deliver that aren't available at 1st level.
Like I said many times, the rogue suffered by the designers unwillingness to provide actual DCs and effects for some skill checks and being fully free wheeling in order to not codify any fantastical action that would turn off Grognards.

So a DC20 Acrobatics check can be walking on freshly mopped floor at one table, walking on a slippery floating chunk of glacial ice in the sea at another table, and hoping on raindrops at a third table.

With such variable and uncertain DCs, only opposed contests and optional checks matter to a Rogue. And then it becomes the onus on the DM to provide them.
 

combat "mini-game" is in most campaigns well over 50% of the things people do and in some it's well over 90% so we cannot just brush that aside.
I think you're on the right track here, but I think you've misdiagnosed the problem.

The problem boils down to "the rogue was built to shine in the 'exploration' pillar of the game" but because over time many tables (and to be fair, adventure modules) have focused exclusively on combat, rogue has a design problem and needs to be "fixed."

I think the root of the problem is that some classes (mostly martials but also a lot of spellcasters) are built for shining in the "combat" pillar of the game, and "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The extra care that has been spent on combat options for these characters, as well as the extreme streamlining and simplification of the skills system, means the game has pushing people in the direction of the combat pillar at the expense of everything else.

Page 47 of the BECMI DMG suggested that when stocking a dungeon, 2 of 6 rooms should be empty, 2 of 6 should have monsters, 1 of 6 should have traps, and 1 of 6 should have a special feature. I would argue that "empty rooms" are part of exploration (they certainly can't be "combat") and I would also posit that "traps" and "special feature" are also meant to fall in the "exploration" pillar, that means it was explicitly stated that exploration is supposed to happen twice as often as combat in BECMI.

Similarly if you look at the 1E DMG random dungeon stocking tables (on p.171) you find 60% of rooms should be empty, 10% a monster with no treasure, 15% monster and treasure, 5% special feature, 5% trip/track, 5% treasure. By my count that's 25% combat (monsters) and 75% exploration... or in other words, exploration is supposed to happen three times as often as combat in 1E.

Compare to page 296 of the 5E DMG where a full 50% of dungeon chambers should have "Monsters" - 13% hazards, 5% obstacles, 12% traps, 4% tricks, 15% empty rooms. Now, as you accurately point out, the explicit expectation in 5E is that at least 50% of the game should be "combat."

So I would suggest the problem is NOT that the rogue needs to be re-designed for combat in 5.5E/6E/whatever. The problem is instead that the rules need to come with a drastic de-emphasis of combat (and that means a lot of care needs to be put into examples of how to do that; the 5E DMG is 320 pages but has just 4 pages on "Traps" and 2 pages on "Exploration" including a half-page illustration... compared to 5 pages on "Combat", 3 pages of "Combat Options" and 10 pages on "Creating a Monster" - that's 18 pages on combat alone versus 6 to traps/exploration).

I don't expect a "Wurst of Grimtooth's Traps"-sized entry on traps and dungeon dressing in the DMG to compete with the Monster Manual (let's be honest, monsters are more fun for players to look than traps), but combat has clearly gotten far more treatment in 5E and is explicitly supposed to happen more often than it did in previous editions, but that means the class that isn't combat-focused isn't getting the proper amount of support.

Again, the solution isn't to give the rogue more combat support. The solution is to give the DM more support on "all things non-combat" and make it crystal clear that combat should be happening MUCH LESS than exploration. (Combat is dynamic. Combat is where a lot of classes are built to shine. Combat also makes 1 minute of "game time" take an hour or more of real time; exploration usually makes hours or days of game time happen in seconds of real time at most tables; if your game is 90% combat it means you're literally spending 99% of the time at the table handling less than 1% of the actual time elapsed in game).

In other words, the rules need to make sure to give the rogue an environment where they can shine as they were designed to do!

Yes, D&D comes from wargaming roots so I expect combat to be the most detailed part. But we've put so much work into simulating war, we're losing the rest of it.
 


why on earth would we want to do this though??? i read this in the same way i would've read 'let's take away the fighter's martial weapon and heavy armour proficiencies', martial's damage is pretty bad and fighter is already low on the totem pole, if we want to improve the rogue then do that, don't drag other classes down.
Not even close. Feats are optional and I've been DMing most of my campaigns without feats since 2014.
 


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