D&D (2024) Maybe this is a bit late, but let's talk about Rogue's Niche, and What Rogue Should Be.

[Clint_L]

There's some hyperbole in the OP, but I agree with the broad points.

All other martial classes gained more than the rogue did in this UA, which means that rogue effectively took a step back. Given that rogue is already a consensus B tier class, I think they will wind up being at the bottom in the 2024 revision.

Their current niche is that they are a good skirmisher, scout, and a skill monkey. But the OP correctly points out that in the UA most other martial classes are getting boosts to their skill checks in various ways, which de facto lessens the usefulness of a rogue. The UA monk crushes the rogue when it comes to being a skirmisher; it's faster, more maneuverable, does better damage, and is much more survivable in most situations (after level 7 or so, a UA monk can easily be your main tank in most encounters). Rogues still have a package that makes them an effective scout, but in the UA there are a lot more familiars available, and familiars are generally better scouts than rogues.

I would definitely give the rogues extra attack at level 5. I mean, they should have that now. And I would increase the number of sneak attack dice by starting rogues with two dice at level 1. I would also allow rogues to have advantage on perception, investigation, acrobatics, and sleight of hand/thieves tools checks while they are stealthed. And I might let them add half their proficiency bonus to their AC, starting at level 1.

 

[Minigiant]

That's because the exploration pillar in and of itself -- as D&D tradition depicts it -- is super boring. Lots of bean counting and 'don't get punished' checks and little reward aside from the aforementioned not getting punished.

I wonder if doing it the other way would be better.

IE when you explore you get penalties by default

1. Hungry
2. Thirsty
3. Exhausted
4. Lost
5. Late
6. Damaged by Trap
7. Damaged by Hazard
8. Took the long way
9. Missed a secret
10. Ran into monsters
11. Can't get into locked room

Every room in the dungeon is just bad news.

Then the party rolls and uses equipment to cancel penalties. Everyone rolls and uses gear. The rogue just has more skills to roll against more penalties.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What is a Rogue?

A handsome knave, a cunning charlatan, a sneak-thief, a short knife between the ribs, a fleeting shadow, a puckish ne'er-do-well, an Expert Treasure Hunter, a brutish thug, a magical trickster.

Dexterity, and its associated skills, are key for the Rogue. From there, what might the Rogue choose to be? I don't really see much of an active role for Con here, and Dex is already core, so that leaves four paths.

Cha: The Errol Flynn style Artful Dodger, all smiles and sunshine in good times, all jumps and (deadly) japes elsewise.
Int: The Sherlock Holmes style Genius Detective, skillful at both solving crimes and committing them.
Str: The Right Hand Man style Brutish Scoundrel, the "cleaner," the enforcer, violence and grace in one.
Wis: The eagle-eyed sniper, look-ahead scout, and information broker--someone nothing gets past.

Develop these concepts. Actually put work into supporting them, thematically and mechanically. Whatever other subclasses there might be, make these things genuinely, actually matter for all Rogues. That's all the core class identity you'll need.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I wonder if doing it the other way would be better.

IE when you explore you get penalties by default

I feel like maybe we can make exploration active and interesting and not try and find a way to impose penalties?

It's like there's something inherent to exploration that makes people want it to be a pain players don't want to do. Reminds me of those sitcoms where the dad makes the family go camping no matter how little the rest of the family wants to and how much he suffers trying to prove camping is fun.

We don't have social encounters assuming the person you're talking to is going to kick you inna forks and only some type of boring busywork can prevent it.

 

[Minigiant]

I feel like maybe we can make exploration active and interesting and not try and find a way to impose penalties?

Well it's a dungeon designed to keep people out and kill who enter.

It's supposed to suck being in inside it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Well it's a dungeon designed to keep people out and kill who enter.

It's supposed to suck being in inside it.

Is 'dungeon' all there is to exploration though?

I should think 'exploration' would be the mode of play between combat, puzzles and social encounters where you're investigating things, climbing mountains, fording rivers, posing manfully before a New Zealand backdrop, petting donkeys and possibly frolicking (also manfully).

 

[tetrasodium]

Is 'dungeon' all there is to exploration though?

I should think 'exploration' would be the mode of play between combat, puzzles and social encounters where you're investigating things, climbing mountains, fording rivers, posing manfully before a New Zealand backdrop, petting donkeys and possibly frolicking (also manfully).

Anything and anywhere can be a dungeon, video games demonstrate that well. The important part of discussing things in terms of a dungeon is that it provides a set of terminology that still applies to ttrpg play even when the video game equivalents like invisible walls and zone borders do not

 

[Minigiant]

Is 'dungeon' all there is to exploration though?

I should think 'exploration' would be the mode of play between combat, puzzles and social encounters where you're investigating things, climbing mountains, fording rivers, posing manfully before a New Zealand backdrop, petting donkeys and possibly frolicking (also manfully).

All dangerous places and/or places with obstacles that block optional content. (Mandatory content should not be locked behind a skill check)

There are 19 skills. That's 19 locks.

You get two skills proficiencies from background. And Rogue gets you four more, two more than everyone except for Rangers and Bards.

That's six keys compared to most people's four keys. And two of the rogues keys are upgraded at level one and six.

Rogue: Four upgraded keys and two regular keys.
Ranger/Bard: Four upgraded keys and one regular key
Everyone Else: Four regular keys

Each obstacle has a lock. The question for the party is who has the best key for it.

 

[TiQuinn]

That's because the exploration pillar in and of itself -- as D&D tradition depicts it -- is super boring. Lots of bean counting and 'don't get punished' checks and little reward aside from the aforementioned not getting punished.

Sure.

 

[Shardstone]

Rogue-as-tool-master is objectively the best idea for the rogue in this thread. Its a bit of a shame it hasn't been done yet by WotC.