[Md20] The generic classes

Mistwell said:


Seriously, it sounds like you are speaking in tongues to me, and probably to a lot of other people. Do you really think references to the Angel TV show were universal pop culture references understandable by most of your audience? Come on now, that show has a 2.6 rating, ranked at 108, below "Half And Half" on UPN and "Reba" on the WB.

However, there are many fans of it and Buffy on these message boards as is proven week after week. I understand your friustration, as I've felt the same way when people talked about the Farscape characters. However, one just has to look past them and find other threads instead of interupting the discussion.
 

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*sigh*

*small rave ahead*

I was going to do a rant but I think I will take a page from Monte Cook and do a rave. Thanks Monte!

Angel, and Buffy, are very good shows. So is Firefly, even if it is near the bottom for ratings. While any shows can give DMs or players ideas, these shows are almost so specific to *exactly* what games are played on this site, I am surprised that people haven't at least given the shows a try.

I read an interesting article on how TV is good for kids as long as it is used responsibly by parents. I think the same is true for adults. There are some very good shows out there and their quality is not represented by their ratings. Enterprise and Smallville are also good shows but being on WB, they will never compete with Friends, ER or CSI for ratings. (I don't watch ER or CSI and I only see Friends every once in a while.)

All I am saying, is keep an open mind. I think that those of us on this message board all like the same things for the most part. Like minds tend to drift together. What I need to watch is when a person likes everything except one small rule that I like. That's when arguments start!

*end rave*

Visceris: Okay, I could buy that for Wesley. Seems a bit low but I would definitely buy it.

Tonguez: Do they also gain skill points at each XP "level"? Perhaps this was just too summarized for me as I am not sure I followed everything you meant. I know it was off the top of your head. I was hoping you might expand on it!

How do you handle Saves and BAB? Do they buy the whole progression? Or do they have to use a feat(s) on ALL improvement at each XP "level"? Again, just a thought. To have a classless system, I think there can be nothing that is given due to "leveling up". It all has to come from points spent. I just didn't see it in your post. Again, I hope you keep going with it!

I think that this has been a very good discussion. I would really like to see a classless d20 system as well. Perhaps even something that could easily go back to DND, even if they never state it. I am sure they won't change DND anymore right now.

In the end, I think that what d20 Modern does is nice and generic. Yes, it could be too generic but I think the general consensus is that it works. Besides, if it doesn't, there is a LOT of good source material out there, most notably Spycraft, that can be pulled in for ideas.

Thanks all!

edg
 

Re: *sigh*

evildmguy said:
*small rave ahead*

I was going to do a rant but I think I will take a page from Monte Cook and do a rave. Thanks Monte!

Angel, and Buffy, are very good shows. So is Firefly, even if it is near the bottom for ratings. While any shows can give DMs or players ideas, these shows are almost so specific to *exactly* what games are played on this site, I am surprised that people haven't at least given the shows a try.

I read an interesting article on how TV is good for kids as long as it is used responsibly by parents. I think the same is true for adults. There are some very good shows out there and their quality is not represented by their ratings. Enterprise and Smallville are also good shows but being on WB, they will never compete with Friends, ER or CSI for ratings. (I don't watch ER or CSI and I only see Friends every once in a while.)

All I am saying, is keep an open mind. I think that those of us on this message board all like the same things for the most part. Like minds tend to drift together. What I need to watch is when a person likes everything except one small rule that I like. That's when arguments start!

*end rave*

[Rant] I'm sorry, but I feel I have earned the right to rant on this one. I am all for TV shows. I watch way too much TV. I like Firefly, and Enterprise, and Smallville, three shows you have watched. I have watched both Buffy and Angel, and I simply do not like either show.

You claimed you were writing a rave. However you started by saying you were surprised how people had not tried those two shows on this board (an assumption), and ended by saying that people should keep an open mind and watch those shows (an assumption that people who do not like those shows are closed minded and have not watched them). Both of those statements have nothing to do with a rave...it's arrogance. We can have an open mind, try the shows, and still dislike them.

I am tired of the arrogance of some of the crowd on these boards about their personal favorite shows. It is one thing to say "I like Show X, and use it in my games. I think it is so good you guys should check it out." However, it is entirely a different thing to say "I watch Show X, and I know you must also. So, I am going to make a reference to Show X now, and if you don't watch, or like, Show X, then you can go find another thread."

That last one isn't fair, and yet, that is exactly what just happened. Crothain just told me to go find another thread, if I don't like the Angel show references. But this is not an Angel thread. This is a D20 Modern Generic Classes thread, and the last place you should be suggesting people get lost if they don't like SPECIFIC SHOW REFERENCES, in a thread titled GENERIC.

I wish I could say this is atypical, but it isn't. The arrogance of the Angel and Buffy crowd got so great in the "Our show, love it or leave" department, that it was one of the major factors behind the Sci-Fi/Fantasy TV section of these boards being opened up. I don't know of any other fans of any other kind of TV show that have that level of arrogance, and I have no idea where it comes from. Somehow, people take those shows more seriously than they take other shows, and it shows in the way they talk about it here at EnWorld.

Again, I have no problem with people liking Buffy or Angel. The only problem I have is when those fans assume everyone watches their show, and if people don't watch and like their show that those people are somehow inferior or do not belong in a thread where those shows were brought up. We are not closed minded drone pop culture whores with no taste if we say we don't like your particular TV show. [/RANT]
 
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fine line - rant or rave [all off topic]

Mistwell,

I understand where you are coming from. I have been at sites where the entire site either trolled or flamed, probably to get attention. It is not a fun time. It also ends up that everyone focuses on such negative things.

It is also not a fun time when I think that someone is pushing something on me. My wife does that to me a lot. What I have found, though, is that after doing what was pushed on me, I found I enjoyed it. Obviously, your mileage will vary.

The problem is that email, internet, IMing, etc. are all TERRIBLE ways of communicating. No matter how many times I use :)s, *grin*s or IMOs, it still doesn't convey how I am saying something. And therefore, I think the reader's mood will fill in the blanks of all of the non verbals, which make up most of our communicating process.

When I asked you to have an open mind, it was in reference to your particular response. I did not see in your earlier responses where you said you had watched them and didn't like them. All I knew was what you had said, which was to talk about ratings and how not everyone would get those references. Therefore, I interpreted that as you had not watched them before.

So, my suggestiong to have an open mind, then, was to suggest that you might like them since I was reading (albeit between the lines) that you hadn't seen them before. Perhaps my wording was poor, and if that is the case, I apologize. That was not my intent.

I know that what I like, most people don't. The shows that I like and watch are rarely in the top 20 ranked shows. I have always liked the more fringe or syndicated shows, compared to mainstream stuff.

What I didn't appreciate is that fact that you are ranting at me for things that others said. I didn't suggest you leave this thread. I only suggested you try a couple of TV shows that I liked that I thought you might like. In that, I think I was following the good advice of Thoreau, who said, "to think that what holds true in your own heart is true for others, that is genius." I think that is a very nice way of saying that assuming that someone will like what I like isn't a bad thing. It is more positive than assuming they won't like it and reacting that way.

Now, this is a bit subjective, but I think a discussion of how ANY character from TV will fit in the d20 Modern rules is just fine for a discussion of the generic classes. I will say that it is too bad that a show was chosen that you don't like. To that, I would merely say that I think you could have jumped in with your own example from any TV show you watch, rather than ranting, as your original post did, about something that others enjoy. I personally don't want to be seen as stopping someone from having fun. I will express my opinion, as I am doing here, but my intent is to be positive and not to put down anyone else as I do express my own opinion.

As my title says, there is a fine line between rant and rave. I don't know where this falls. Again, it could be based on the mood of the reader. I will just ask you this:

Is it better to say something negative or something positive? And which did you do with your original post?

I am not asking you to change anything about yourself. THAT WOULD be arrogance. I am just asking you to look at what you posted and ask yourself if that is how you want to be perceived.

I will also say this, I will accept any constructive criticism people have about my own posts and will gladly ignore flames! *grin*

Thanks for reading! Good discussion!

edg
 

to be on topic

What are some other good examples of modern classes?

Alias' main character is a tough one. In more ways than one! She is definitely multi classed. Probably has levels of Fast (kickboxing), Smart (school and languages) and Charismatic (they potray her as affecting others). She could be passive Dedicated, but I think Wisdom is her low attribute. That is IMO, though, because I do think the mom is up to something and trusting her is foolish. If I am wrong on that, then her wisdom is higher.

Teachers from Boston Public, or lawyers from any David E Kelley show, are probably Smart and Dedicated heroes.

CSI main characters are also Smart and Dedicated with a level of Fast, Strong or Tough to show their background training and such.

FBI (from nearly any show) - These are tough to classify. A lot of the main characters that we see are probably Smart or Dedicated with a few levels in either Fast or Tough. I don't think we have seen a Strong FBI main character. (Mulder rarely won in a fight!)

In general, though, I bet police officers and FBI probably have Tough or Fast with a few levels of Smart for the skills needed there.

How about movies?

Die hard - McClaine was probably Tough with levels of Dedicated.

Unbreakable - Tough and Strong Hero! Obviously some Psi FX. I don't know about other levels.

Lethal Weapon - Riggs - Tough and Fast with some Dedicated. Murtaugh - Dedicated and Tough with some Smart.

Harry Potter ( :) ) - Okay, you do have to use the FX rules, but I think that Harry is Charismatic with some Smart. Hermione is Smart with some Dedicated. Ron is probably Dedicated.

Star Wars - whoops. Wrong system! :)

Hopefully these have helped give some ideas of how the generic classes can work. Heck, this convinced me that they do! A simple mental exercise to see how some modern characters would work! Try it and see! Could be a good discussion, including what I have said.

Thanks!

edg
 

Well, the title is genric classes, which they are. However, since the thread is dealing with specifics I'm just going to post a fair warning that I'm about to post characters from books, movies, and TV shows that you may not have seen or read. Obviously, this is not an attempt to exclude you from the thread, it is just a list and shouldn't be read into as anything more :D

Oilriggers from the Abyss: I think most are tough or strong, with a little deticated thrown in there.

Hitchiker's Guide: Ford Perfect seems Charismatic and dedicated. Arthur seems like a mixture of Smart and Dedicated, athough his ability scores probably are not that good.

West Wing: Most of the people I think Smart, Dedcated and charimatic fit for in different combinations.

Ed: Mostly dedcicated and Charimnsatic there as well.
 

Stargate SG-1 d20 Modern Iconic Heros

Well, I will let the topic of Buffy and Angel drop, since it seems to have passed, and contribute my own bit to the generic Movie portion of this thread.

I've been thinking about this subject for the StarGate d20 Modern game I am preparing. The earlier shows portrays the following, I think, with classes and some skills listed:

Daniel Jackson - Smart/Charismatic Hero (Knowledge: History, Knowledge: Arcane Lore, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Forgery, Investigate, Sense Motive, Search)
Teal'c - Tough/Strong Hero (+ Jaffa Advanced Class) (Knowledge: History (Non-Earth Only), Knowledge: Technology (Non-Earth Only), Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, Navigate, Pilot, Survival)
Maj. Samantha Carter - Dedicated/Smart hero (Treat Injury, Knowledge: Earth & Life Sciences, Knowledge: Physical Sciences, Craft: Chemical, Craft: Electronic, Computer Use, Demolitions, Repair, Research).
Col. Jonathan "Jack" O'Neill - Fast Hero (+ soldier Advanced class?) (Balance, Bluff, Demolitions, Gamble, Gather Information, Jump, Knowledge: Tactics, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble)
 

ced1106 said:
I still can't wrap my head around the generic classes. Modern characters don't have the stereotypes like fantasy ones. Why not a CoC d20 base class, and feats, skills, and prestige classes to customize the character?

I'm really not too fond of the stat-classes of d20 modern. But I do think they are head-and-shoulders over CoC's "options". They actually represent something. Let's say I have a soldier, a character who would realistically be good at shooting AND and keeping hisself from being shot -- i.e., good at offense and defense. That's not possible in d20 CoC. I figure most combative characters would be good at both offense and defense, so I am not sure what offense option really represents. Now defense option I can see, but there are way to many character possibilities that don't fit either.

Were I to run d20 CoC, I'd use d20 modern classes (or spycraft or T20, anything but d20 CoC.)
 


Jeph said:
Spycraft and t20 classes are way to overpowered for a horror game.

Horror is more of a mindset then anything. I think having players that feel they have powerful characters works well in a horror game. I like the players to at first be comfortible before they realize just how bad it all is.
 

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