D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

[doctorbadwolf]

Using point buy and feats, the Kensai Monk is a 50/50 with the BM/SS/CE Fighter from 5th level onwards, at a starting range of 40'.

Human(V) Monk, Feats Martial Adept [Ambush, Menacing attack], Alert, D: 16, W 16, Con 14, W 10 S/Ch 8

Winning initiative is key (as it often is). He has +8 to initiative (and an extra d6 from Ambush if needed) vs the SS/CE BM's +3 (and maybe +1d8 from Ambush if selected).

He should go first, move 40', attack with a sword, fist and flurry for 2 more fists all at +6 vs an AC of 16 for the BM.

Two (of the 4) should hit, he spams Stunning strike on each, and the Fighter should (on average) fail 1 of the 2 x DC 14 Con saves (even with Con Save of +6), taking 1d10 (sword) +1d6 (martial arts) + 6 damage (15 damage) and using 3 Ki points.

Next turn the Monk unloads on the Fighter (at advantage) again flurrying and should hit 3/4 times now thanks to advantage, dealing 1d10+2d6+1d6 from Menacing +9 (another 25 damage) and triggering a Wisdom save (DC14 so the Fighter usually fails).

The Monk now has 1 Ki point left and the Fighter has taken 40 damage, and is frightened of the Monk (whos AC is currently 18).

Fighter has 9 HP left (presuming Con 16)

With disadvantage vs AC 18, he Action surges, choosing not to use Sharpshooter (+3 vs AC 18 at disadvantage is unlikely). At +8 vs AC 18 he hits 2/4. He uses precise shot on both attacks that miss, turning them both into hits, and blows his other 2 Superiority dice on Pushing attack on the two that hit without Precise shot.

We'll even let one of the hits be with Sharpshooter 'on'.

He deals a whopping 4d6+2d8+22 or 45 points of damage of which the Kensai absorbs 13 of this damage with deflect arrows.

As a bonus action he Heals 10 hit points with Second wind (now on 19 HP). He has now used all his Sup dice, Action surge, and Second Wind.

The Monk has 7 HP, and 1 Ki point left, and its his turn.

He attacks 4 times (flurry) vs AC 16 at +6 - two hit, for 1d10+1d6+6 (15 damage).

Fighter (now with 4 HP) attacks 3 times vs AC 18 at +8. He gets 1 1/2 hits out of 3, of which the Monk can deflect 1.

If the Fighter hits with the third attack, and rolls 4 or better on his d6 he wins. Otherwise the Kensai kills him next turn.

Pretty even, and we're talking about a fight with 'THE' DPR king of the game in the SS/CE BM.

Fighter uses trip attack rather than the pretty useless pushing attack, and I’m curious what stat layout you used for both, but sure, Kensei holds up okay in 1v1. Open Hand probably does better, though.

Also I’d wait until 6 to take Sharpshooter on that fighter build, and use that ASI for +2 Dex.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The two big influenes seem to be Kung Fu the television series that you refer to and Chun from the Destroyer novel series. Tim Kask has stated Brian Blume was a fan of the Kung Fu tv series and pushed for the inclusion of a monk class. Gary Gygax on these forums has also said that he was inspired by the seriesKung Fu. However, many years earlier, Gary stated that the monk was inspired by Blume and the Destroyer series of novels.

this is near common knowledge at this point.
do you understand that it needs to be improved as a class?

 

[Minigiant]

One core issue is the Ki dependency. But not for the reasons discussed.

Hadoken, Jan Ken, Roundhouse Kick, German Suplex, Hurricarana, Superkick to the Face, Burst Knuckle, ATATATATATATATA!, and Water Whip don't cost a resource.

The old 1970s martial artists didn't have "at-will" special attacks. Modern ones do.

The monks only ki-less special attack is Flurry of Blows. Even if you add special attacks via subclass, the class is still based around making 3-4 unarmed attacks.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think it could have easily by having an at-will set of elemental stances, access to simple elemental melee weapon attacks when in a stance, and elemental themed boosts to existing ki features when in a stance.

Yep. Radiant Soul is an example, and just change the damage types.

Well, that and make the disciplines cost 1ki/spell level, rather than 1+1ki/level.

The monk is built as a short-rest-based half-caster using the spell point system in terms of ki points and spell costs. It is the equivalent of the Ranger and Paladin - a melee-focused chassis with limited spellcasting.
Hence the thematic disconnect with element-benders whose main attacks were generally spell-like rather than physical melee like the monk.

I think as you say, that a solid elemental at-will attack would be needed to be able to replicate an element-bender monk without resorting to just using a spellcaster. An equivalent of the Warlock's Eldritch Blast - and you could pilfer some of the invocations that boost it from the warlock as well.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I have ideas on splitting the martial artist but without destroying monk class as lots of concepts would like a martial art but multiclassing into monk would be a bit much.
martial art going towards something closer to a short ability list or even weapon proficients. with the monk still being the stand out king.

I have also been considering on operating martial arts from the subclasses as it feels like subclasses are just the same thing as a way to fight when they could be far more thematic than that, given the way of the shadow is a ninja it is already a bit weird how it subclasses work so pulling them apart and re building them properly would help.

OK, so some suggestions: - Rather than the monk being a Ranger or Paladin analogue, I'm thinking of something closer to the Artificer, where subclasses are much more transformative to the role.
Firstly, to cover the non-magical martial arts concepts:

Fighting style: En Garde
You may calculate your AC as 10+ Dex or Strength modifier + Proficiency Bonus. Normal bonuses such as shields may apply.

Feat: Lethal hands.
Your unarmed Strike is a simple weapon dealing 1d4 damage with the Light property and a material cost that you may be considered to be wielding.
You may make an additional attack with it as a bonus actions per the Two-weapon Fighting rules. When you do so, you may add your ability score to the damage of that attack.


Monks automatically get this Lethal hands feat, in addition to their Martial Arts Class feature.
Ki points are calculated as Wisdom modifier + half Monk level (rounded up).

Remove Flurry of Blows as a base feature.

Monks get to choose Ki abilities from a list similar to Warlock Invocations and Artificer Infusions.
Flurry of blows is there.
As are many Battlemaster Maneuvers - Each costs a Ki point and uses the monk's martial arts die as a superiority dice.

Some subclasses will have additional options to select.

 

[Greg K]

this is near common knowledge at this point.
do you understand that it needs to be improved as a class?

Personally, I don't think it is near common knowledge. Most gamers I have met have no clue regarding the origin of the Monk's class whether they started with AD&D or a WOTC editon.
As for understanding that the class needs improvement, I have had issues with the monk class (and martial arts) since AD&D and moreso with WOTC editions where I see more people trying to treat the monk as a general martial artist class (In AD&D, some people were at least designing classes for the ninja, escrimadors, and sumotori to address differences from the monk). The monk abilities are too specific to cover a variety of unarmed fighting styles that people might want to replicate. In my opinion, the monk should have either been split into two separate classes (hybrid spellcaster/martial artist class and a generic more customizable martial artist class) or a subclass of a more generic martial artist class. The more generic martial artist class should be designed to handle unarmed fighters and styles from various cultures and better represent the "supernatural" abilities of those styles and cultures and even the monk's techniques and abilities should be more customizable.

Edit: For a martial artist class, I would probably take a little inspiration from 1e Oriental Adventures and 2e Complete Ninja's Handbook and have a choice of Hard, Hard/Soft, or Soft form. I might also draw from the same source and a choice of primary method (e.g., Block, Lock/ Hold, Kick, Push, Strike (i.e. punch), Throw Vital Area) that gives a bonus. Then, drawing upon @SkidAce's Marial Arts feat (which was removed from his website when I last checked) and KibblesTasty similar variant Monk ability on Reddit that replaces Stunning Strike with maneuvers, I would have the player choose three maneuvers similar to some of the battlemaster maneuvers (this would allow for customizing styles).

As the character levels up, the player could choose new maneuvers and special style abilities including any supernatural abilities. While I would not get super detailed into specifying combat maneuvers such as finger locks, leg scissor takedowns, I would look to GURPS Martial Artists, Hero System's Ultimate Martial Artist, and Blood and Fists (for d20M). I would also look to both Mystic China and Ninjas & Superspies for more special abilities and "supernatural abilities" (ignoring the styles).
With regards to subclasses, monk could be one. Other subclasses could be based upon styles and improve on the both the choice of Hard, Hard/Soft or Soft form, grant new maneuver choices, and also determine the style's list special ability choices (and/or when they are granted)

Edit 2: Actually, subclasses might be based around certain themes as are Blood & Fists's advanced classes (Bad Ass Barroom Brawler (think Jackson in Bloodsport), Contemplative Master, Martial Arts Master, Ninja, Totem Warrior, Weapon Master) and Ninja's & Superspies's Dedicated Martial Artist and Worldly Martial Artist. The styles would still have maneuvers and special abilities to choose from with the main class and subclass controlling when you gain selections and granting other abilities.

 

[Mind of tempest]

interesting.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Does anyone want to go consolidate what we have so far?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Does anyone want to go consolidate what we have so far?

Its your homebrew: you're the person who knows what they don't like about the Monk, and its up to you to decide what suggestions fit your image of what you want it to be.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

One core issue is the Ki dependency. But not for the reasons discussed.

Hadoken, Jan Ken, Roundhouse Kick, German Suplex, Hurricarana, Superkick to the Face, Burst Knuckle, ATATATATATATATA!, and Water Whip don't cost a resource.

The old 1970s martial artists didn't have "at-will" special attacks. Modern ones do.

The monks only ki-less special attack is Flurry of Blows. Even if you add special attacks via subclass, the class is still based around making 3-4 unarmed attacks.

My monks standard attacks were....

Dragonslaying Longsword x2, Sword pommel if I was being offensive.

Dragonslaying Longsword, Sword Pommel X2 if I was being defensive.

But almost always it was Move 50' encircling the foes, Magic Longbow X2. My job in the party was picking off the rear line/important folks/casters and running down anyone trying to escape to warn others.

I didn't even have "martial arts" as much as I was a reskinned primitive warrior who was a "skirmisher" rather than stuck in the middle of a melee.

The main thing I felt was stupid about the monk design (actually kensai subclass) was the fact it made you give up a kensai weapon attack in place of an unarmed attack to get the defensive bonus for a round....which seemed kind of odd.