• Welcome to this new upgrade of the site. We are now on a totally different software platform. Many things will be different, and bugs are expected. Certain areas (like downloads and reviews) will take longer to import. As always, please use the Meta Forum for site queries or bug reports. Note that we (the mods and admins) are also learning the new software.

5E Mearls' "Firing" tweet

Status
Not open for further replies.

Elfcrusher

Explorer
Pronoun identifiers in the form of name tags, signatures on forums, etc. are awesome. Even for cis folks, it helps people be more confident in knowing that they aren’t misgendering someone, it helps normalize the idea of checking for preferred pronouns rather than assuming based on gender presentation, it takes the “I didn’t know” excuse away from jerks who intentionally misgender people they clock and feign ignorance... it’s just a great policy on every level.
I've been tempted to wear a name tag with "We/Us/Ours", but I don't want people to think I'm mocking the right of people to choose their own pronouns. I just think it's funny.
 

Jer

Explorer
I don't think PF2 is under OGL.
Well, the playtest was, so it would be really weird (and possibly legally indefensible- though IANAL) if the final rules weren't OGL.

Plus it would be a dumb move on their part. Wizard's attempt to roll back the OGL when they released 4e was a dumb move on their part, and would be even dumber for Paizo, who needs community goodwill far more than Hasbro does to survive.
 
With respect (see what I did there? :) )...

I'm going to push back on that. Politics didn't happen. Some folks have figured out that we should give people enough respect to give them space to be who they are. Folks who think being respectful of others is "politics" ought to re-examine that position.
It's not about not giving someone space to be who they are, it's the lack of justification. Gender is a useful concept. Adding a Y chromosome changes a number of visible and hidden biological factors. We separate sports into different categories for men and women for a reason. We can argue whether or not that reason is justified or legitimate, but the reason remains: men and women's bodies are different. It is therefore helpful to have specific words to identify membership in each group, he and she.

The only time messiness and offense arises is when we separate sex and gender. Since gender is a social construct that many agree causes and undue amount of confusion and stereotyping, I say we deconstruct it and eliminate it entirely. Let us have pronouns attached to genetic sex and nothing else.
 

billd91

Earl of Cornbread
The only time messiness and offense arises is when we separate sex and gender. Since gender is a social construct that many agree causes and undue amount of confusion and stereotyping, I say we deconstruct it and eliminate it entirely. Let us have pronouns attached to genetic sex and nothing else.
Turns out... that's wrong. There may be 2 major varying chromosomes, but it has become clear that, for a not insignificant number of people, there is variation. That's what you get with 23 chromosome pairs and all sorts of varying environmental conditions during development - complexity.

Do you think that the relatively simple genetic model of ABO blood types and Rh factors gives you a complete picture? It makes for a good lesson in genetics for middle school biology, but it's incomplete because there are other factors in the genome that are involved. There are also M, N, D+, K+, and more. 28 different antigens identified so far.

So why would you think something as complex as sexual identity would be so simple? Why would you assert it absolutely has to be that simple? Why would you deny the complexity that other people assert is real and part of their life experiences? Why must you assert that they are wrong?
 
Turns out... that's wrong. There may be 2 major varying chromosomes, but it has become clear that, for a not insignificant number of people, there is variation. That's what you get with 23 chromosome pairs and all sorts of varying environmental conditions during development - complexity.

Do you think that the relatively simple genetic model of ABO blood types and Rh factors gives you a complete picture? It makes for a good lesson in genetics for middle school biology, but it's incomplete because there are other factors in the' genome that are involved. There are also M, N, D+, K+, and more. 28 different antigens identified so far.

So why would you think something as complex as sexual identity would be so simple? Why would you assert it absolutely has to be that simple? Why would you deny the complexity that other people assert is real and part of their life experiences? Why must you assert that they are wrong?
Interesting, but I'm not sure I entirely understand. Where can I go to learn more about these variations and their relationship to biological sex?

I'm perfectly willing to admit there is much I don't know. What I'm missing to change my opinion is evidence and a method of connecting the biology is linguistics under an objective standard.

As of now, I see the purpose of pronouns is to understand where certain individuals fit into society. With the breakdown of gender expectations, I'm not sure their necessary anymore. They seem rather vestigial in many ways, except with regards to reproduction, sports, and medicine.

I'm not sure how sex can be someone one chooses instead of a helpful tag describing the physical and biological traits someone is statistically expected to have. Once again, however, my knowledge of biology may not be up to date, and I would love to learn more.
 

Morrus

Administrator
Staff member
Mearls' "Firing" tweet

So this thread had a root in RPGs in that we were talking about WotC’s creative director’s statements. Now we appear to just be talking about gender pronouns and dictionaries, which isn’t on topic for this forum (or even this thread).

If you want to talk about Mike Mearls and his tweets and how they relate to the gaming community please feel free. Otherwise, we’ll close it as entirely off-topic for the forum.
 
Last edited:
You haven't deconstructed or eliminated anything, you've just decided everyone should conform to your standard.
Not really. Anyone else can do and use whatever words they want to describe anything he or she chooses. The English language is far from standardized. Only I personally see pronouns make the most sense when assigned by biological sex. With the information I have at my disposal, I see it as the best more objective meaning of those sets of words. I am, whoever, willing and interesting in examining evidence to the contrary.

And you are correct, I have not deconstructed anything. I have no need to. By disentangling gender and sex, thereby making gender on a linguistic identifier connected to no objective standard, it can only be assigned by self-identification. There is simply nothing left to deconstruct.
 

Azzy

Explorer
It's not about not giving someone space to be who they are, it's the lack of justification. Gender is a useful concept. Adding a Y chromosome changes a number of visible and hidden biological factors. We separate sports into different categories for men and women for a reason. We can argue whether or not that reason is justified or legitimate, but the reason remains: men and women's bodies are different. It is therefore helpful to have specific words to identify membership in each group, he and she.

The only time messiness and offense arises is when we separate sex and gender. Since gender is a social construct that many agree causes and undue amount of confusion and stereotyping, I say we deconstruct it and eliminate it entirely. Let us have pronouns attached to genetic sex and nothing else.
The problem arises, here, that there are more than just the XX and XY pairings, and even within those two pairings there are those that show sex characteristics typical of the other pairing. It's a lot more messy and convuluted than you seem to think.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Advertisement

Top