Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Fix high level wizards: Kill them with fire? Nuke them from orbit? Play B/X?
D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.
- Thread starter Deekin
- Start date
J-H
Hero
Yes... unfortunately, they're split over multiple classes and not all of equal utility. Water's first damaging spell is at 3rd level (Tidal Wave), and then it has Summon Elemental, Watery Sphere, Maelstrom, Horrid Wilting, and Tsunami. Very end-loaded, and the top damage spell (Horrid Wilting, which sucks moisture from the body) is Arcane, while Tidal Wave and Tsunami are Druid. To make a water+cold caster you really have to cross the lists.
CreamCloud0
Hero
J-H
Hero
If someone really wanted to go on-theme I'd let them make a sorc or warlock from a themed list even if it crosses classes. Maybe a Fathomless Warlock who controls all things liquid. That gives you a cold/water/acid theme that's pretty solid with a mix of control & damage spells. A bit light on debuffs.
Justice and Rule
Legend
The PF2 discussion in this thread is honestly baffling to me given my experience is completely different. But that's not what the thread is about, so let's move on...
I think if you want to make the Wizard less complicated, it will take an entire class rework. Honestly, an entire magic rework, which isn't a bad idea in general if you really want to modify 5E. Right now trying to imitate the magic of the past is basically the problem. Taking a cue, but not the full structure, of the Warlock is probably a good idea.
For example, instead of just piling on Spell slots forever, you max out at 9, which basically equate to "low", "medium", and "high" level spells. So if you are a 5th level wizard, you get four 1st level spells, three 2nd level spells, and two 3rdlevel spells. Just like normal, still manageable, right? But as you level up, you lose ones at the bottom to give you more at the top: when you go to 6th level, you lose one 1st level slot to gain a 3rd level slot. And when you get 4th level spells, you lose your 1st level slots. If you want to quibble about the number of slots and how they go up, feel free, but the idea would be that it's more about travelling up the chain and not just creating a massive stockpile of spells.
So what offsets losing the lower level ones? Well, I would give Wizards an "Master" ability. It's like a little currency that, once per short rest (to start, but it'll go up) you can cast any level that is lower than your current lowest level. It'll be cast one level below that. So if you lose your first level spells, you can still bust out one every now and then if you need. But instead of it being an empty slot, it becomes more of a "utility" slot: I can bust out anything, and maybe you get an extra one from whatever specialist college you are a part of. But it gives you the versatility of "I always have a spell" without having to track a dozen extra spell slots you won't use, nor having to memorize a bunch of low-level spells. You concentrate on what you have and if you need some weird thing to bypass some problem, go look it up. But until then, don't worry about it.
Same with cantrips: start replacing them at upper levels with new ones that are better adapted to "epic" play. Trying to keep cantrips the same throughout the game is probably too much of an ask and ends up limiting them in weird ways because you have to balance them both at the low and upper ends of the spectrum. Just fit stuff so that it has a natural replacement. Firebolt gives way to Fireblast, which has a small AoE and can be used in a small cone for lesser damage, Frostbite moves over for Flashfreeze, which can temporarily immobilize along with its damage or be spread out to hit more people at the cost of merely slowing people down. Much like the spell slots, you slowly replace what you have with stuff better adapted to your level and better represent it. You can do the same with utility cantrips, too, but I'm just not going to think of anything right now because I'm not interested in actually completely rewriting things.
That's my view. Over time, you take away the slots that just take up space, while still giving players the ability to jump back into the old stuff if there is some puzzle or a pressing need to. But I could be wrong.
I think if you want to make the Wizard less complicated, it will take an entire class rework. Honestly, an entire magic rework, which isn't a bad idea in general if you really want to modify 5E. Right now trying to imitate the magic of the past is basically the problem. Taking a cue, but not the full structure, of the Warlock is probably a good idea.
For example, instead of just piling on Spell slots forever, you max out at 9, which basically equate to "low", "medium", and "high" level spells. So if you are a 5th level wizard, you get four 1st level spells, three 2nd level spells, and two 3rdlevel spells. Just like normal, still manageable, right? But as you level up, you lose ones at the bottom to give you more at the top: when you go to 6th level, you lose one 1st level slot to gain a 3rd level slot. And when you get 4th level spells, you lose your 1st level slots. If you want to quibble about the number of slots and how they go up, feel free, but the idea would be that it's more about travelling up the chain and not just creating a massive stockpile of spells.
So what offsets losing the lower level ones? Well, I would give Wizards an "Master" ability. It's like a little currency that, once per short rest (to start, but it'll go up) you can cast any level that is lower than your current lowest level. It'll be cast one level below that. So if you lose your first level spells, you can still bust out one every now and then if you need. But instead of it being an empty slot, it becomes more of a "utility" slot: I can bust out anything, and maybe you get an extra one from whatever specialist college you are a part of. But it gives you the versatility of "I always have a spell" without having to track a dozen extra spell slots you won't use, nor having to memorize a bunch of low-level spells. You concentrate on what you have and if you need some weird thing to bypass some problem, go look it up. But until then, don't worry about it.
Same with cantrips: start replacing them at upper levels with new ones that are better adapted to "epic" play. Trying to keep cantrips the same throughout the game is probably too much of an ask and ends up limiting them in weird ways because you have to balance them both at the low and upper ends of the spectrum. Just fit stuff so that it has a natural replacement. Firebolt gives way to Fireblast, which has a small AoE and can be used in a small cone for lesser damage, Frostbite moves over for Flashfreeze, which can temporarily immobilize along with its damage or be spread out to hit more people at the cost of merely slowing people down. Much like the spell slots, you slowly replace what you have with stuff better adapted to your level and better represent it. You can do the same with utility cantrips, too, but I'm just not going to think of anything right now because I'm not interested in actually completely rewriting things.
That's my view. Over time, you take away the slots that just take up space, while still giving players the ability to jump back into the old stuff if there is some puzzle or a pressing need to. But I could be wrong.
Great entire post, snipped for what I think is a key point.
payn
Glory to Marik
yeah I liked that one too.
This is the kinda thought I like talking about at ENworld. I mean you are 100% correct. If you look at it that way.
Re: Elementalist Wiz Subclasses or (Witch):
Where do you (generic or specific up to you) want the emphasis? I could say...I want my wizards to be similar (same chassis) to each other, with the BIG differences being between Wizard and Witch. With witches all being similar.
So MY elementalist subclasses for wizards would be mainly different in the chosen element, but many of the mechanics would be the same (e.g. 6th level apply casting mod to damage with chosen element, 10th level summon elemental of chosen element, etc etc)
This causes the desirable effect of "thats a fire wizard" (IMO).
Your method turns the focus on the subclass (valid), putting a greater emphasis on their specialization, maybe so much that the "witch" part of the Mind Witch is almost irrelevant to the identity. From an In campaign perspective, the populace may not even know that a Mind Witch and a Iron Witch are the same "thing".
Not saying you take it that far. But its interesting to see how far along a spectrum the emphasis can be placed.
Like my specialist wizards. All wizards, just a different field of study. But my sorcerers? I use their subclass as their identity, much as you list above, having sorcerers that are healers, psychics, pyrokinetics, etc...where their identity is their subclass (modified abilities and spell lists)
Bottom Line? I agree with you and thank you for the thought provoking perspective.
Kibblestasty has some great elemental spells.
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