D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.

[Zardnaar]

you have a point, but as far as themed casters go (subclass or otherwise), i would prefer if there was at least a decent baseline selection of thematic spells to exist before they create a subclass around that theme, because then the class features can actually build off and interact with those spells.

not to mention, more often than not, i don't think thematic features can support a themed subclass by themselves if the rest of the class can't provide the juice to back up the theme, how many of us have tried to create a (non-fire) draconic sorcerer and found there's not even enough proper spells of your element in your list to count on one hand? perhaps a slight exaggeration, but it doesn't feel good when my black dragon acid sorcerer is relying on fire and cold damage to fill out the holes in their offence, (sure i could be eating sorcerer points on transmute spell but i shouldn't have to be doing that and other classes don't get that luxury).

Theres this spell called chromatic orb. Sorcererous burst and dragon breath as well.

Acid balls a lot better than fireball.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Theres this spell called chromatic orb. Sorcererous burst and dragon breath as well.

Acid balls a lot better than fireball.

i know there are versatile elemental spells, but they are also designed extremely generically without mechanical flavour specific to any of the elements they can be used with so they feel a bit lacking as 'representation' for elemental themed casters IMO.

 

[Zardnaar]

i know there are versatile elemental spells, but they are also designed extremely generically without mechanical flavour specific to any of the elements they can be used with so they feel a bit lacking as 'representation' for elemental themed casters IMO.

I have thought about an acid sorcerer. Not sure if i would give up empower or twin for the energy substitution part.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I have thought about an acid sorcerer. Not sure if i would give up empower or twin for the energy substitution part.

i wasn't even talking about what's possible with metamagic, but chromatic orb, sorcererous burst, dragon breath and the like, they're all pure damage spells, my acid chromatic orb doesn't reduce AC or do additional lingering damage as opposed to if i used cold or poison which might do their own slight variations on chromatic orb.

 

[Zardnaar]

i wasn't even talking about what's possible with metamagic, but chromatic orb, sorcererous burst, dragon breath and the like, they're all pure damage spells, my acid chromatic orb doesn't reduce AC or do additional lingering damage as opposed to if i used cold or poison which might do their own slight variations on chromatic orb.

What damage dealing spells reduce AC?

 

[CreamCloud0]

What damage dealing spells reduce AC?

none, well there might be i guess, i don't know, i was just throwing out something that felt appropriate an acid spell might do as a secondary effect.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is the kinda thought I like talking about at ENworld. I mean you are 100% correct. If you look at it that way.

Re: Elementalist Wiz Subclasses or (Witch):

Where do you (generic or specific up to you) want the emphasis? I could say...I want my wizards to be similar (same chassis) to each other, with the BIG differences being between Wizard and Witch. With witches all being similar.

So MY elementalist subclasses for wizards would be mainly different in the chosen element, but many of the mechanics would be the same (e.g. 6th level apply casting mod to damage with chosen element, 10th level summon elemental of chosen element, etc etc)

This causes the desirable effect of "thats a fire wizard" (IMO).

Your method turns the focus on the subclass (valid), putting a greater emphasis on their specialization, maybe so much that the "witch" part of the Mind Witch is almost irrelevant to the identity. From an In campaign perspective, the populace may not even know that a Mind Witch and a Iron Witch are the same "thing".

Not saying you take it that far. But its interesting to see how far along a spectrum the emphasis can be placed.

Like my specialist wizards. All wizards, just a different field of study. But my sorcerers? I use their subclass as their identity, much as you list above, having sorcerers that are healers, psychics, pyrokinetics, etc...where their identity is their subclass (modified abilities and spell lists)

Bottom Line? I agree with you and thank you for the thought provoking perspective.

It obviously also has a lot to do with what the implied setting really things a Witch or Wizard (or Sorceror) is.
In the Diamond Throne/Arcana Evolved setting, Witches are basically gifted with their abilities, and they can manifest quite differently.
But in another setting, they could be some sort of rural alchemist and healers. In yet another, they might gain their powers by consorting with the Devil, or have Hag blood in their veins or whatever, or it could be whatever it is is Pathfinder. In Hexxen 1173, Witches are women that are basically possessed by a Storm Spirit and are almost always evil ("White Witches" exist in later supplements, the storm spirit doesn't yet have control of them), in Shadowrun, they might be Shamans selecting from one of the "Wicca"-styled Totems.

Each of this would lead to very different ways to implement a class representing them..

 

[Zardnaar]

none, well there might be i guess, i don't know, i was just throwing out something that felt appropriate an acid spell might do as a secondary effect.

Ive had a acid sorcerer concept since early 5.0. Wasn't worth doing. Tashas made the concept better and 5.5 enabled it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Ive had a acid sorcerer concept since early 5.0. Wasn't worth doing. Tashas made the concept better and 5.5 enabled it.

i feel like you're focusing too much on the acid sorcerer idea in this conversation, it's not about THE acid sorcerer, it's about any thematically specific caster subclass having a reasonably deep and versatile pool of spells to be able to fulfil their concept and still have flexibility in execution.

 

[Zardnaar]

i feel like you're focusing too much on the acid sorcerer idea in this conversation.

Acid whatever isnt a big archetype vs Pyro or cold.