D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.

[Zardnaar]

old twin spell was much better.
in 5.0 it was the ONLY thing that sorcerer could say to wizard, in this one thing, I am better than you.

should have just kept it at 1SP/spell level.
double that number of targets or area of a spell.
Nothing can be affected twice by the twin spell.
IE; fireball can create two areas to be affected, by if the overlap only one will target creatures in overlapping area.

or twin scorching ray.
3 rays become 6 rays, but max of 3 rays can target one creature.

Its the Uber cheap price. Old twin spell was kinda expensive.

New one letets you twin all you lvl2+ slots of you want with points left over.

The very low fost overall is a buff imho. Its also why I say Sorcerers better at control than wizards.

 

[Aldarc]

Cant please everyone. Eventually 5E will run out of steam and they'll have to do something different.

I woukd at least do some polling around big directions to take. Vs ENworlds approach of declear yourself correct and insult everyone who disagrees.

Some of those things are diametrically opposed eg simple vs complex. I'm about a 6/10 on complexity scale can go to a 7. Lowers also fine at least short term. Also depends DM vs playing.

Someone's going to miss out espicially if you're closer to a 1 or a 10 on various sliding scales and are unwilling to compromise. Can't please everyone.

Once you add builds to a game youre going to struggle with balance issues.

You are correct. This is also why there are a number of divisions about what direction to take D&D with 5e and post-5e. At this point, I don't really have any skin in this game, so I am content to leave this to the people who are still playing the game. I don't expect a version of D&D that appeals to my own sensibilities. Even if I only wanted an overhaul and reevaluation of the classes, my choices would undoubtedly be unpopular. It's hard to imagine that the next iteration of D&D would please me, so I mostly play other games instead now and leave D&D to those who who enjoy playing it and are more invested in its design choices.

My main point is WotC successfully created a big tent with 5e, but going forward is more difficult when 5e's big tent could easily go in a myriad of different directions, each pulled by its own faction.

 

[Zardnaar]

You are correct. This is also why there are a number of divisions about what direction to take D&D with 5e and post-5e. At this point, I don't really have any skin in this game, so I am content to leave this to the people who are still playing the game. I don't expect a version of D&D that appeals to my own sensibilities. Even if I only wanted an overhaul and reevaluation of the classes, my choices would undoubtedly be unpopular. It's hard to imagine that the next iteration of D&D would please me, so I mostly play other games instead now and leave D&D to those who who enjoy playing it and are more invested in its design choices.

My main point is WotC successfully created a big tent with 5e, but going forward is more difficult when 5e's big tent could easily go in a myriad of different directions, each pulled by its own faction.

Yeah. I wouldn't make Zards preferred version if a magic genie gave me control over WotC.

I would poll for severe changes. Complexity feats yay or nay. If yay micro or bigger feats. Lvl 1-10 yay or nay things like that.

I wouldn't poll on a basic engine but might on tweaks to it.

Do you want tougher monsters i woukd poll on along with drastic overhaul to saving throws (potentially ditching 3E/5E type saves).

Sone spells would go away or be rewritten. Mostly higher level ones.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Designers do the best they can. They still have to follow the directives from above. Here's your budget here's your time frame go.

Then I would argue that either the timetables they're being given are literally too short to complete the project (which I find unlikely but at least possible), or that they're failing to manage their time correctly and allowing "we have PLENTY of time!!" logic to ruin their schedule (which I find quite likely indeed).

Time management is always hard with a project. I would know. I have absolutely dog-crap in terms of time management skills. I had to learn, brutal step by brutal step, the need for time management skills in order to get anywhere in life.

Seems to me we need to stop coddling designers that fritter away years worth of work-time and then ultra-crunch the last six months to get it done. Perhaps, if the workload were more equitably distributed--if they treated the early days as being genuinely "every moment is precious"--we would not have so many issues with "we literally cannot test all of the game we're making"?

 

[Zardnaar]

Then I would argue that either the timetables they're being given are literally too short to complete the project (which I find unlikely but at least possible), or that they're failing to manage their time correctly and allowing "we have PLENTY of time!!" logic to ruin their schedule (which I find quite likely indeed).

Time management is always hard with a project. I would know. I have absolutely dog-crap in terms of time management skills. I had to learn, brutal step by brutal step, the need for time management skills in order to get anywhere in life.

Seems to me we need to stop coddling designers that fritter away years worth of work-time and then ultra-crunch the last six months to get it done. Perhaps, if the workload were more equitably distributed--if they treated the early days as being genuinely "every moment is precious"--we would not have so many issues with "we literally cannot test all of the game we're making"?

Part of that early crunch is figuring out what people want.

Older D&D was cobbled togather they rebuilt D&D 3 times in 14 years.

The ingredients are all there in 5E to do whatever. Theyre just scartered through all the books. You could clone most editions with the 5E engine.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Part of that early crunch is figuring out what people want.

Then that should be done in advance, no? Don't waste your INCREDIBLY precious design time on "what do people even WANT?" Get that part done before your design deadline is set in stone.

Like I don't understand why ANYONE would start a project, and only then, after they're already embarked, only then ask, "Okay, what should our project be?"

Older D&D was cobbled togather they rebuilt D&D 3 times in 14 years.

Frankly, I don't see much difference between the two. The former was a hodgepodge of quixotic, schizophrenic pieces that often actively resisted cooperating with one another. That's not a good thing, nor something to aspire to. I am not saying this because I look down on the design chops of Gygax or whomever else, to be clear. I think Gygax was actually a very savvy designer! He designed for goals that I don't personally care for, but that's irrelevant to whether his designs achieved the goals he sought. As long as you were told how to use them correctly (something he was unquestionably terrible at doing in textual form), they did exactly that--which means they were good design. Sometimes brilliant, even, especially in the context of the time.

But let us not pretend that it would be any kind of improvement to go back to designing every single rule as its own bespoke subsystem that gives no real concern to any other existing bespoke subsystem.

The ingredients are all there in 5E to do whatever. Theyre just scartered through all the books. You could clone most editions with the 5E engine.

Okay? I have no idea what your point is with this claim. So...I can't really respond to it. Instead, have the below as something to discuss; if you wish to clarify your intent with this line, I'll happily respond.

I had previously put these two paragraphs at the end of the previous post, as an edit, but you had replied during that span of time, so I'm putting it here instead. Topic: Designers wasting far too much time.

Like, let me give you an example here. It took them nearly two entire years just to get the Fighter (and most of Rogue) to where they wanted it to be. They spent nearly a year just trying to make Specialties work, only to abandon them far too late to find any kind of replacement. That's far, far worse than just "this is a difficult thing and stuff takes time". That's genuinely not having a schedule, not having internal deadlines for when critical components need to be finished. The Fighter should have been finished within the first year of public playtesting. It's a tentpole, benchmark class--it needs to be done early so everything else can fall in line. Likewise, the Cleric, as the benchmark healer/support (even if it does other things!) needs to be done early so that other, subsequent developments are soundly-structured.

Waiting until almost the very end of your public playtest period to finalize the "core four" speaks of very poor time management--no/inadequate internal deadlines, no/inadequate review process for addressing time-overruns, no/inadequate consequences for dithering and wasting time. I'm not saying I would automatically be better at organizing this than they would; I'm sure I'd be terrible at it because I don't know the first thing about publishing a book, and they certainly know more than that. But I don't need to be a rocket scientist to tell that a rocket missed its launch window. I don't need to be an accountant to know that spending more money than you earn is going to put you in debt. And I don't need to be a project manager to know that taking 3/4 of your allotted project time just to finish the first steps of building your game means you've failed to keep on schedule.

 

[Zardnaar]

Then that should be done in advance, no? Don't waste your INCREDIBLY precious design time on "what do people even WANT?" Get that part done before your design deadline is set in stone.

Like I don't understand why ANYONE would start a project, and only then, after they're already embarked, only then ask, "Okay, what should our project be?"


Frankly, I don't see much difference between the two. The former was a hodgepodge of quixotic, schizophrenic pieces that often actively resisted cooperating with one another. That's not a good thing, nor something to aspire to. I am not saying this because I look down on the design chops of Gygax or whomever else, to be clear. I think Gygax was actually a very savvy designer! He designed for goals that I don't personally care for, but that's irrelevant to whether his designs achieved the goals he sought. As long as you were told how to use them correctly (something he was unquestionably terrible at doing in textual form), they did exactly that--which means they were good design. Sometimes brilliant, even, especially in the context of the time.

But let us not pretend that it would be any kind of improvement to go back to designing every single rule as its own bespoke subsystem that gives no real concern to any other existing bespoke subsystem.


Okay? I have no idea what your point is with this claim. So...I can't really respond to it. Instead, have the below as something to discuss; if you wish to clarify your intent with this line, I'll happily respond.

I had previously put these two paragraphs at the end of the previous post, as an edit, but you had replied during that span of time, so I'm putting it here instead. Topic: Designers wasting far too much time.

Like, let me give you an example here. It took them nearly two entire years just to get the Fighter (and most of Rogue) to where they wanted it to be. They spent nearly a year just trying to make Specialties work, only to abandon them far too late to find any kind of replacement. That's far, far worse than just "this is a difficult thing and stuff takes time". That's genuinely not having a schedule, not having internal deadlines for when critical components need to be finished. The Fighter should have been finished within the first year of public playtesting. It's a tentpole, benchmark class--it needs to be done early so everything else can fall in line. Likewise, the Cleric, as the benchmark healer/support (even if it does other things!) needs to be done early so that other, subsequent developments are soundly-structured.

Waiting until almost the very end of your public playtest period to finalize the "core four" speaks of very poor time management--no/inadequate internal deadlines, no/inadequate review process for addressing time-overruns, no/inadequate consequences for dithering and wasting time. I'm not saying I would automatically be better at organizing this than they would; I'm sure I'd be terrible at it because I don't know the first thing about publishing a book, and they certainly know more than that. But I don't need to be a rocket scientist to tell that a rocket missed its launch window. I don't need to be an accountant to know that spending more money than you earn is going to put you in debt. And I don't need to be a project manager to know that taking 3/4 of your allotted project time just to finish the first steps of building your game means you've failed to keep on schedule.

They didnt know where to go.They listened to the fans.

 

[mamba]

Two years for a revision is typical. That's 5 years total.

it might be typical, but it was too little. They cut their UAs short. The OGL dumpster fire they started distracted them to the point that their UA schedule slipped and they barely got through the PHB, if that

 

[Horwath]

Its the Uber cheap price. Old twin spell was kinda expensive.

New one letets you twin all you lvl2+ slots of you want with points left over.

The very low fost overall is a buff imho. Its also why I say Sorcerers better at control than wizards.

it was expensive but better, and it could have been improved.

now we got the cheap version but less powerful.

 

[mamba]

They didnt know where to go.They listened to the fans.

and they took forever to figure out one class, having no adequate time for most of the others. So either start early with figuring out your direction (too late for that in the Next case, but One seems to not have learned from that either), drastically extend your timeline so you can figure out the others, or move on to the next class instead of spending half your time on revising one of them