D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.

[tetrasodium]

I think in the past they tried to cater specifically to super fans, and it didnt work out. Its far easier to loose the 80% than the 20%. The super fans are gonna reluctantly stick around. Its true some will gravitate to Vampire, or D20's, or Pathfinder, or 13th age, or daggerwhatever, etc.. Despite all these D&D "killers", here D&D is sitting right on top. Alternatives can and should be available and are not any reason for WotC to go shooting from the hip.

You oversimplify and misread/misstate my point. Catering exclusively to the other side of that coin and ignoring the group you dub "super fans" to endlessly cater to what is suspected to be the desires of players who don't care beyond their ability to show up to play at a table being run by one of those "super fans" comes with a cost when the one running the table decides little by little that the juice they keep pouring out week after week isn't worth the squeeze because wotc doesn't care to print them juicers like others do

 

[payn]

You oversimplify and misread/misstate my point. Catering exclusively to the other side of that coin and ignoring the group you dub "super fans" to endlessly cater to what is suspected to be the desires of players who don't care beyond their ability to show up to play at a table being run by one of those "super fans" comes with a cost when the one running the table decides little by little that the juice they keep pouring out week after week isn't worth the squeeze because wotc doesn't care to print them juicers like others do

Nope, I think its you who misread my point.

 

[Aldarc]

I think in the past they tried to cater specifically to super fans, and it didnt work out. Its far easier to loose the 80% than the 20%. The super fans are gonna reluctantly stick around. Its true some will gravitate to Vampire, or D20's, or Pathfinder, or 13th age, or daggerwhatever, etc.. Despite all these D&D "killers", here D&D is sitting right on top. Alternatives can and should be available and are not any reason for WotC to go shooting from the hip.

I guess the super fans stick around because they can only get tables with casual fans.

Though I don't think that any of these designers have the intent to create a "D&D killer," but some people want drama, and critics of these other games want to set them up to fail by pitying them against "kill D&D or bust."

 

[tetrasodium]

Nope, I think its you who misread my point.

And yet here we are in a thread discussing some of the goals and specific elements in how his possible metaphorical juicer is coming together while the last book most of my players bought wasn't one published by wotc

 

[payn]

I guess the super fans stick around because they can only get tables with casual fans.

Super fans tend to on ramp casuals and build communities. They keep games alive and help them thrive. Thing is they are more volitile then casual gamers. Your potential casual pool typically stays the same. Super fans get burned out, move to other games, but also get created every day. A company should listen and talk to their super fans, but I think they need to be careful about tailoring specifically to them at risk of their causal pool.

Though I don't think that any of these designers have the intent to create a "D&D killer," but some people want drama, and critics of these other games want to set them up to fail by pitying them against "kill D&D or bust."

It's kind of a cultural aspect. Same thing happens with a lot of other genres and products. Like MMOs and world of warcraft. Its sort of a total validation of your idea if it takes the crown sort of thing. Proves you were right all along or something. I've got caught up in the past nearly 20 years ago in the E.wars but they taught me its a waste of time and energy.

 

[payn]

And yet here we are in a thread discussing some of the goals and specific elements in how his possible metaphorical juicer is coming together while the last book most of my players bought wasn't one published by wotc

History and I dont agree with you. Maybe you are right this time, but WotC isnt betting on it.

 

[Yaarel]

Spell points instantly solve the problem of low-slot spell bloat. (The cost of a spell is its slot. So, a slot 3 Fireball costs 3 points to cast.) Done.

The ideal number of prepared spells is less obvious and depends on design goals. Here to minimize the number of prep spells but to avoid pain, is a goal. Currently the edition 2024 classes have about four prepared spells at level 1, and about twelve by level 8. Additionally cantrips advance from about two to about four. This range of levels is what most gamers experience, and the number of preps seems deemed sufficient. However, even these numbers of preps suffer from low-slot bloat to supply spells for the bloat of low slots. When switching to spell points, there is no need to have low-slots spells anymore, unless there is a particular low-slot spell that one wants, such as Shield. The absence of low-slot prepared spells means fewer need to be prepared.

Tentatively, the following table represents the essence of full caster advancement levels. It uses spell points that refresh per short rest, thus balance better with noncaster classes.


F U L L C A S T E R

PRO	L	SHORT REST SPELL POINTS	HIGH COST	PREP ATTACK SPELLS	PREP NONATTACK SPELLS
+2	1	2	1	3	2
+2	2	3	1	3	2
+2	3	4	2	3	3
+2	4	5	2	3	3
+3	5	6	3	4	3
+3	6	7	3	4	3
+3	7	8	4	4	4
+3	8	9	4	4	4
+4	9	10	5	5	4
+4	10	11	5	5	4
+4	11	12	6	5	5
+4	12	13	6	5	5
+5	13	14	7	6	5
+5	14	15	7	6	5
+5	15	16	8	6	6
+5	16	17	8	6	6
+6	17	18	9	7	6
+6	18	19	9	7	6
+6	19	20	10	7	7
+6	20	21	10	7	7

Above, the table starts with a total of five prepared spells at level 1, reaching eight by level 7. The high tiers start with nine preps at level 9 and eventually fourteen by level 19. These preps can be any available slot. As the low slot spells gradually obsolete, there is no longer a need to prep them, and higher slots can be prepped instead. From the spell points pool, any amount of points upto the High Cost can be spent. The highest slot of a spell is slot 9. The High Cost of 10 refers to upcasting a spell.

The Prep Spells divide between Attack Spells and Nonattack Spells. There are two separate spell lists to help each one be more manageable.

(The table gives a sense of the quantities involved. But there can be further modifications. Such as, these numbers might also be used if wanting to prepare a cantrip, while the spell ability adds a bonus number of cantrips. )

 

[Zardnaar]

WHICH fans?

Because "We listened to fans!" is like saying "We listened to forum-goers!" You could've picked the great ones or you could've picked the terrible ones or you could've gotten both and tried to please both or any of a zillion other things.

Their surveys were inherently driving away any voices that might have said other things, and inherently (and very obviously) courting only one or two specific groups. That's not a big tent. That's "we decided who we would listen to before we started listening".

Biggest D&D ever indicates they did something right.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Yeap, I think they stayed true to big tent or what I like to call "everybody's second favorite edition" with 5.24. 5.24 is upsetting because of all this conventional wisdom begin shared here in this thread by super fans. The type of folks who play the crap out of the game, spend time during the day discussing it online, etc... Meanwhile, the average player who just plays it but doesnt care this much about it just buys and moves on.

At this point it's now fighting for spot 2 with its former self. lol

But I think part of the problem was putting too much power in the surveys. You are game designers, you have to sometimes make decisions that might not seem popular at first because your fanbase is conservative about your game.

Look at Wildshape: the playtest was a solid solution that could have been refined into something good compared to the the janky "Pick an animal at this CR" stuff that fed into optimizers. But players thought they were being restricted because the options were balanced, rather than being enabled to frame themselves as any animal you like instead of choosing one out of a pack of 3 optimized choices per level. Sometimes the players simply can't see what is being offered because they are too concerned with what is being lost.

Trying to make sure they had massive consensus for changes instead of making proper design choices is I think what lead to a lot of the disappointment with the edition. It's a big tent game, so getting a supermajority for a change is difficult unless the feature or class is truly broken. I understand not wanting to upset your player base, but that's going to happen regardless because you are "changing editions", if not literally at least from the perception of many. Might as well try to implement proper fixes instead of sending them to the survey meatgrinder.

Spell points instantly solve the problem of low-slot spell bloat. (The cost of a spell is its slot. So, a slot 3 Fireball costs 3 points to cast.) Done.

The ideal number of prepared spells is less obvious and depends on design goals. Here to minimize the number of prep spells but to avoid pain, is a goal. Currently the edition 2024 classes have about four prepared spells at level 1, and about twelve by level 8. Additionally cantrips advance from about two to about four. This range of levels is what most gamers experience, and the number of preps seems deemed sufficient. However, even these numbers of preps suffer from low-slot bloat to supply spells for the bloat of low slots. When switching to spell points, there is no need to have low-slots spells anymore, unless there is a particular low-slot spell that one wants, such as Shield. The absence of low-slot prepared spells means fewer need to be prepared.

Tentatively, the following table represents the essence of full caster advancement levels. It uses spell points that refresh per short rest, thus balance better with noncaster classes.


F U L L C A S T E R

PRO	L	SHORT REST SPELL POINTS	HIGH COST	PREP ATTACK SPELLS	PREP NONATTACK SPELLS
+2	1	2	1	3	2
+2	2	3	1	3	2
+2	3	4	2	3	3
+2	4	5	2	3	3
+3	5	6	3	4	3
+3	6	7	3	4	3
+3	7	8	4	4	4
+3	8	9	4	4	4
+4	9	10	5	5	4
+4	10	11	5	5	4
+4	11	12	6	5	5
+4	12	13	6	5	5
+5	13	14	7	6	5
+5	14	15	7	6	5
+5	15	16	8	6	6
+5	16	17	8	6	6
+6	17	18	9	7	6
+6	18	19	9	7	6
+6	19	20	10	7	7
+6	20	21	10	7	7

Above, the table starts with a total of five prepared spells at level 1, reaching eight by level 7. The high tiers start with nine preps at level 9 and eventually fourteen by level 19. These preps can be any available slot. As the low slot spells gradually obsolete, there is no longer a need to prep them, and higher slots can be prepped instead. From the spell points pool, any amount of points upto the High Cost can be spent. The highest slot of a spell is slot 9. The High Cost of 10 refers to upcasting a spell.

The Prep Spells divide between Attack Spells and Nonattack Spells. There are two separate spell lists to help each one be more manageable.

(The table gives a sense of the quantities involved. But there can be further modifications. Such as, these numbers might also be used if wanting to prepare a cantrip, but then the spell ability grants the bonus number of cantrips. )

Honestly if you just replaced low-level slots entirely with spell points at certain levels, that would be both an interesting mechanic and probably a whole bunch of the slot bloat. I'd also say start handing out metamagics to all spellcasters and find something properly interesting to do with sorcerers, but that is another topic entirely.

Biggest D&D ever indicates they did something right.

I mean, kind? The whole "BIGGEST D&D EVER" argument misses a lot of factors including changing ways of first encountering the material, the market being primed for it, etc. Popularity doesn't necessarily measure quality, it also can measure accessibility, and D&D is easily the most accessible given that it was always the biggest name on the block and could find shelf space basically anywhere. We could make the same statement about McDonald's, too. It's a worthless point to make.

 

[payn]

At this point it's now fighting for spot 2 with its former self. lol

But I think part of the problem was putting too much power in the surveys. You are game designers, you have to sometimes make decisions that might not seem popular at first because your fanbase is conservative about your game.

Look at Wildshape: the playtest was a solid solution that could have been refined into something good compared to the the janky "Pick an animal at this CR" stuff that fed into optimizers. But players thought they were being restricted because the options were balanced, rather than being enabled to frame themselves as any animal you like instead of choosing one out of a pack of 3 optimized choices per level. Sometimes the players simply can't see what is being offered because they are too concerned with what is being lost.

Trying to make sure they had massive consensus for changes instead of making proper design choices is I think what lead to a lot of the disappointment with the edition. It's a big tent game, so getting a supermajority for a change is difficult unless the feature or class is truly broken. I understand not wanting to upset your player base, but that's going to happen regardless because you are "changing editions", if not literally at least from the perception of many. Might as well try to implement proper fixes instead of sending them to the survey meatgrinder.

I think folks put a little too much stock in, "you are gonna upset somebody, so you might as well go for broke" kind of perspective. In the status quo take you will annoy some folks who want big changes, the latter you really need to knock it out of the park or you are gonna lose your base. At this point D&D isnt the innovator, its the incubator.