D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.

[Zardnaar]

Timing. Thats what id did well.

D&D 5e released before Critical role and stranger things and nerd culture in general getting a push (with big bang theory and others). Many other nerd hobbies also had increasing numbers in the year 5e had.


5e was the weakest D&D release, so weak indeed that in the 2nd year of 5e WotC needed to release 2e, 3e and 4e as pdf on drivethru to push D&D sales (look up the release dates). Only getting 29 million revenue in the first year and 2nd year.


I know you will bring your "5e sales only was bad because of 4e was so bad" excuse, but this is just not how things worked. People did buy not just the PHB books in 4e but many others books as well.

Rpgs are not 1 time preorder. And for 5e there was even a public playtest so many buzz before and people knew about the edition and what they buy. It also had 40 years D&D celebration and it still had the weakest 1st year sale and needed 2E, 3E and 4E PHB/DMG releases to not lose sales in the 2nd year. (And yes the old version pdfs bring lot of money. Even in 2019 it was still 21%)

And this even though 5e "PHB preorders were above expectations" and even though there was no new D&D books 2 years before. (Unlike in 3E, 3.5 and 4E) so people did not get the "I just bought books recently" which was critizizef in 3.5 and 4e from fans.


Games get popular when they are in popular movies. Poker got a big push from casino royale. Chess a big push from queens gambit. D&D a huge push from crirical role and streaming becoming popular and from stranger things.


Most 5e players by far never did play any other version and never had the choice which version to play. They dont play 5e because its soo good. They play 5e because they want to play D&D and thats the current version.

Well 5 5 had a big release because 5E was in a reasonably great place.

People will make up any excuse to negate 5E achievements. It wouldn't have had the legs it had if it didnt do something right.
. If people bail on your product ASAP you've done something wrong.
The brand> esitiin. People expect certain things from D&D. A few of them are the sacred cows.

 

[Blue]

Look up how 13th Age did the wizard. It's a D20 OGL system that came out before 5e by lead designers of 3ed and 4e as their "love letter to D&D" and the game they wanted to play in their regular campaign, but didn't have to be beholden to the sacred cows or executive meddling.

The problem he talks about they identified and provided a solution in a D&D manner 12+ years ago. It was the most anticapated RPG of the year when it came out with our own ENWorld polls, and the 2nd Edition just came out a few months back.

Here's the link to the Wizard (13th Age 1st edition SRD). You have a total of 4+level spells (4 + 1/2 level in D&D, 13th Age is a 1-10 level game), there's not even a separate cantrip list. It's based off the 3.x SRD, each of those is a separate spell. Your lower level slots get replaced with higher level slots and every single spell upcasts (before 5e had it, I think upcasting was originally from the d20 Wheel of Time RPG for male channelers). There's a lot of context about this, including when a full-heal-up (D&D long rest) happens which is quite different, in 2nd ed they clarified the terminology and it's per arc instead of daily.

 

[Tigris]

Well 5 5 had a big release because 5E was in a reasonably great place.

People will make up any excuse to negate 5E achievements. It wouldn't have had the legs it had if it didnt do something right.
. If people bail on your product ASAP you've done something wrong.
The brand> esitiin. People expect certain things from D&D. A few of them are the sacred cows.

Thats what happened with 5e. People bought PHB and then bailed. Remember "exceptional PHB sales" and then "weakest first year sales". (And 2nd year sales only safed by old pdf releases).

The people who play 5e mostly have no idea what D&D is. Its not the old people with the sacred cows who brought many players to 5E its new players. They dont have 20+ year old expectations about the game.


Also a game does need to do nothing right if its popular. Monopoly has legs and it was literally a game created to be NOT FUN. It has really bad ratings from players, especially players who play other boardgames, but it still gets bought because "everybode knows it". The same about D&D. More people know it than people know Roleplaying games.


Many D&D 5e players mever played any other rpg and dont want to learn new things. Similar to many monopoly players not wanting to learn new boardgames.


WotC itself was surprised by the success of 5e. And thats because its thanks to other media. They even made it with a small budget and no ambition.


5e had good timing and D&D is the BY FAR most known rpg brand. You dont need to do anything right. Just not too much wrong (ogl debacle) in this position.


We have the numbers and data. We know how bad initial 5e sales were. And how they went up after it went popular through media.

Literally the same happened with texas hold em and james bond casino royale. Before that movie most people only knew 5 card poker and texas holdem is also now still popular, because once something is popular it stays popular because of the much social media and other content is created about.

 

[Staffan]

Exactly the old quote from Henry Ford (I know he didn't actually say it) is very apt:

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses" - Henry Ford.

As Steve Jobs liked to say, "people don’t know what they want until you show it to them," emphasizing the importance of innovation over mere customer feedback. Because customers don't know\can't see what is possible.

Yes and no.

People as a group are generally not very good at coming up with solutions to various issues. They are, however, pretty good at identifying problems.

But I don't know if "wizards having 15-20 spells to choose from at high levels" is an actual problem. In most cases, a significant portion of those spells wouldn't be relevant at all in whatever situation you're in. If you're mid-fight, the solution isn't going to be contact other plane or Tenser's floating disc. So in any given situation, the relevant number would be something like 5-10. And if you got to that level honestly (i.e. not starting at level 10+), you should have enough knowledge of your spells to know what's what.

 

[Tigris]

Yes and no.

People as a group are generally not very good at coming up with solutions to various issues. They are, however, pretty good at identifying problems.

I know this is often quoted, but is there a proof for this?


Because many games showed that often this is not true.

People finding characters/cards OP, when data shows they underperform.

People thinking a weapon is too weak, but then when sound effects are changed, the weapon gets played more.

Players giving feedback one card is way too weak, then a streamer playing a deck with the card and suddenly players give feedback the card is too strong.

 

[tetrasodium]

Crossbow/Sling/Dart Wizard are one of those wonderful pieces of nostalgia that are really difficult to explain to anyone not familiar with how old D&D works and why a Wizard would use such weapons. They are such D&Disms, but they do make me smile a little bit from their goofiness.

I think what usually gets ignored is that cantrips stripped so much power from the buff/debuff and control force multiplier spells that at the time those wizards were more effective party members despite how awful their damage was with sling & crossbow. The 5e cantrips largely gave the wizard power it didn't need so it could soso fill a party niche better filled by some other classes at the cost of erasing it's own party niche
Here is

Spoiler: some evidence

The Glass Cannon:

This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. The Glass Cannon is like the Big Stupid Fighter except he does not want to take damage. Usually this is not due to superior intelligence - but instead due to inferior HP or AC (or in most cases - both). The Glass Cannon is often a Rogue (Or Rouge for our 13 year old readers), a Gish, an Archer, or a Blaster (the inferior wizard).


:

D&D 3.x - Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Being a God in D&D 3.5 (Treantmonklvl20, CantripN, Tsuyoshi, Dan2)

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think what usually gets ignored is that cantrips stripped so much power from the buff/debuff and control force multiplier spells that at the time those wizards were more effective party members despite how awful their damage was with sling & crossbow. The 5e cantrips largely gave the wizard power it didn't need so it could soso fill a party niche better filled by some other classes at the cost of erasing it's own party niche
Here is

Spoiler: some evidence

The Glass Cannon:

This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. The Glass Cannon is like the Big Stupid Fighter except he does not want to take damage. Usually this is not due to superior intelligence - but instead due to inferior HP or AC (or in most cases - both). The Glass Cannon is often a Rogue (Or Rouge for our 13 year old readers), a Gish, an Archer, or a Blaster (the inferior wizard).


:

D&D 3.x - Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Being a God in D&D 3.5 (Treantmonklvl20, CantripN, Tsuyoshi, Dan2)

are there images in that spoiler block that aren't loading? (or at least any ones that are significant to understanding anything about your point)

 

[tetrasodium]

are there images in that spoiler block that aren't loading? (or at least any ones that are significant to understanding anything about your point)

Not really. The link to the repost of an ancient 3.5 guide I copied it from has them missing. I vaguely remember that the original guide had images of casters casting spells and such many years ago

 

[kigmatzomat]

The 5e wizard and sorcerer were so different I question if you never played 3m5e to make that comparison by mistake or if it was deliberate obfuscation.

It seems like you're saying 3e and 5e casters play radically different.

 

[payn]

Thats what happened with 5e. People bought PHB and then bailed. Remember "exceptional PHB sales" and then "weakest first year sales". (And 2nd year sales only safed by old pdf releases).

The people who play 5e mostly have no idea what D&D is. Its not the old people with the sacred cows who brought many players to 5E its new players. They dont have 20+ year old expectations about the game.


Also a game does need to do nothing right if its popular. Monopoly has legs and it was literally a game created to be NOT FUN. It has really bad ratings from players, especially players who play other boardgames, but it still gets bought because "everybode knows it". The same about D&D. More people know it than people know Roleplaying games.


Many D&D 5e players mever played any other rpg and dont want to learn new things. Similar to many monopoly players not wanting to learn new boardgames.


WotC itself was surprised by the success of 5e. And thats because its thanks to other media. They even made it with a small budget and no ambition.


5e had good timing and D&D is the BY FAR most known rpg brand. You dont need to do anything right. Just not too much wrong (ogl debacle) in this position.


We have the numbers and data. We know how bad initial 5e sales were. And how they went up after it went popular through media.

Literally the same happened with texas hold em and james bond casino royale. Before that movie most people only knew 5 card poker and texas holdem is also now still popular, because once something is popular it stays popular because of the much social media and other content is created about.

You got that backwards. Casino Royale was Bakarat when written. Texas Holden exploded in popularity so they change it for the Craig film.

I am curious why critical role used 5E if it sucked so bad? They never used 4E.