Mearls on Balance in D&D

Mouseferatu said:
Hmm... Seems like what you need is someone who's up on current D&D mechanics/philosophies, and who likes the original but recognizes that it has its flaws, to sign up to write an "Expedition to..."-style revisit.

Gosh, where could you find someone like that? Hmm...

What? :D

Where indeed? LOL - well you get my vote Ari for what it's worth! :D
 

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mearls said:
As far as Mearls bashing goes, I don't really care about it. There are some people who, if they bash on something I do, I listen to them. There are other people who can say whatever the heck they want. I simply don't care. It's the nature of the Internet that negative voices amplify and echo. At the end of the day, my job is to make really cool D&D books that make lots of money for Hasbro, distributors, and retailers, while making D&D more fun for as many people as possible.

There are times when complaining is a sign that a design is hitting its aims square in the bull's eye. If no one complained that Nine Swords was too anime or overpowered, that would've been a good sign that we screwed up.

I can see that with the Nine Swords book, since I got the impression that it was supposed to test what is essentially the equivalent of a spell-system for warrior-types (I don't actually have the book, so I am making this assumption on the few things I have read about it). However, in most cases a large dose of complaining surely cannot be taken as a good thing, although some complaining is inevitable with every product or design decision.

In this context, if possible, I would like to enquire a bit into the apparent desire to move the game into the direction of 'per encounter' balancing, which at least from the looks of things on these boards, grates a significant number of people in the wrong way. Many of us, myself included, simply do not see many advantages in balancing the game on a 'per encounter' basis and 'fear' (as much as you can fear something about a game) that the eventual 4th edition will be balanced in this manner.

If you find the time, could you please expound on the philosophy behind the shift of the game in this direction?

As of now, I can already foresee many problems with players trying to artificially join encounters together in order to maintain a duration on their ability, or alternatively cut encounters short just so that their ability refreshes. There is also the fact that per-encounter balancing does not limit characters on a greater timescale, so grinding the PCs down gradually, which can be an interesting part of some adventures, would be much less of an option. Of course, the lack of a standard and balancing for out of encounter ability use if they are balanced on a per encounter basis, also raises questions. The game also seems more interesting if some classes have a trade-off between peak power and staying power and per encounter balancing would seem to do away with this.

Some of the above problems could be avoided by using implicit rather than explicit per encounter balancing. That is, rather than abilities having a 'per encounter' duration, they could have a set time duration, say 5 minutes (or 2 minutes - the exact number would require playtesting), that is sufficient for the duration of almost all encounters and could in practice be treated as a 'per encounter' duration untill one of those situations arises where the encounter is very non-standard in terms of its duration. It would also take care of the out of encounter use of abilities and their duration. Also, rather than abilities being refreshed every encounter, more abilities could be usable at will or require a 'cooldown' period of varying magnitudes depending on the ability in question. This kind of implicit per encounter balancing would be much more palatable for me (and I dare guess many other people) than explicit per encounter balancing, though it still retains the problem that characters cannot be ground down gradually across multiple encounters (which can be great fun), does not allow for significant trade-offs between peak power and staying power and does not allow for abilities with more far reaching impacts than encounter resolution (I am thinking of things like wish spells, etc.). For these to be possible, at least some balancing out of the 'per encounter' system would have to be retained.
 

mearls said:
I have no idea what the pet had that gave it such a crazy AC. I imagine it was simply a combination of notoriously.... interesting... mechanics, such as the druid's pet, and the druid in general, along with some stuff from Savage Species. Keep in mind that this game is pretty much an excuse for people to make ridiculous characters to pit against my equally ridiculous giants.

D&D already gives you a trade off of strengths and weaknesses on the class level. Extending it elsewhere is dicey. Races are a good example. A +4 Con isn't balanced by -4 Int and -4 Cha. Anyone who takes such a race simply avoids classes that need Int and Cha.

On a similar level, giving someone a great AC but balancing it with a bad Will save is problematic because it pushes the issue on to the DM. To challenge the character, the DM needs to throw monsters that force Will saves at him. How often is enough? Every encounter? Every other encounter?

The underlying genius of the class system is that it requires the players to work together to mask each others' weaknesses. Trade offs on that level are fine, because the adventure challenges the party as a whole. Trade offs on a PC level are more problematic, particularly when you let someone pick strength A that comes with weakness B. The smart player simply minimizes the weakness and emphasizes the strength, like with the race example I gave above.

I think balance works best when you look at equivalent options and weigh them, rather than by taking an option and putting a counter on it that rests in another area.

OTOH, you can balance by placing the cost in the correct position. A bonus to AC for a penalty to a Will save is bad, because the two aren't really equivalent. The situation that calls on AC has nothing to do with Will, and vice versa. For example, imagine a feat that gives a +1 bonus to AC, plus the option to gain +4 AC against one attack in return for taking a -4 penalty to AC until the character uses a standard action to regain his defensive focus (or whatever). In this case, the penalty ties directly to the area that the feat serves, hopefully provoking an interesting decision.

(Obviously, that's not the best feat in the world, but I hope it illustrates the idea.)

Thanks for this post - I love reading design posts (especially from designers ;) ) and always seek to learn something from them. :)

I can see the logic behind not wanting to balance classes by giving them a bonus in one area and a penalty in a relatively unrelated area, but if you do not do this, how can you differentiate classes from one another? For example, wizards have high will saves and spellcasting, but poor BAB and hit dice. If you do not want to balance their spellcasting prowess by poor BAB and hit dice, then you either have to remove their spellcasting ability, in which case they are no longer wizards, or you have to balance their spellcasting with penalties in other areas, which though brings us back to square one. So I can see the logic in your thinking, but it seems that it presents a conundrum.

As to your thoughts about classes supporting one another, though, I am in complete agreement and am happy that this is the design approach being taken. :)
 

mearls said:
The underlying genius of the class system is that it requires the players to work together to mask each others' weaknesses. Trade offs on that level are fine, because the adventure challenges the party as a whole. Trade offs on a PC level are more problematic, particularly when you let someone pick strength A that comes with weakness B. The smart player simply minimizes the weakness and emphasizes the strength, like with the race example I gave above.

I think balance works best when you look at equivalent options and weigh them, rather than by taking an option and putting a counter on it that rests in another area.

...

Thanks. This is about what I was expecting given your previous work on Iron Heroes. ;) But it's cool to see more in-depth discussion about the rationales underneath it all.
 

T. Foster said:
FIFY. As " just another module," B2 is pretty mediocre (though there's some great flavor sprinkled here and there -- "Bree yark," the shrine of Evil Chaos, etc.), but as the first module, an introduction to what the game's all about, a way to show 11 year old novice DMs how to design an adventure and run the game, it's a masterpiece.

I disagree totally with this. When I first saw it, I found B2's lack of direction and storyline to be confusing. Coupled with the lack of any npc details, it just seemed like an unfinished product. As a novice DM, I didn't know how to make this work.

I did have fun running it for a C&C game a couple of years ago. I just don't think its ideal for a beginner.

B1 was a much better module for new DM's IMO.
 

BryonD said:
Now it is really quite likely that not a single one of them would have have the stroke of insight to create the RPG concept when it didn't truly exist (as we think of it now) before. Gary gets that credit in spades and always will. He is the father of the genre. He'll be the main attraction at the RPG hall of fame for it and it is well deserved.
But that raises the question of whether person X can be called a better game designer than person Y if X's work is based on Y's previous work (even granting that the game designed by X is better than the prior game designed by Y).

Btw, personally, I think Gygax's later game, Lejendary Adventure, is a much better game than D20. I even like it better than AD&D (but only by a smidgen).
 

MerricB said:
Funny - I think B2 is a really great module, T1 is good, and T1-4 is dreadful.
B2 is probably my all-time favorite module. I can't think of one that I like better. It has just the right level of detail for a DM to flesh out and make it his own, and just the right level of combat and intrigue to get the players hooked.

T1 is definitely a close runner-up, though. I'm not terribly fond of T1-4 at all, the latter portions just don't live up to the promise of the original.
 

dcas said:
But that raises the question of whether person X can be called a better game designer than person Y if X's work is based on Y's previous work (even granting that the game designed by X is better than the prior game designed by Y).

To me the answer is "yes". Just because someone does something first, doesn't mean they are for ever and ever better than those that come after.

/M
 

Hussar said:
Kind of points to wealth by level don't it? Yes, it wasn't called out. And yes, it wasn't codified. But, it certainly existed.

No, because what we're talking about here is 1) Using DM judgement to control these things vs. 2) Using some codified system. If you say any judgement about what kind of treasure a party should have is "wealth by level" then the whole conversation is moot. We've been discussing for the last several pages whether having the codification is better than telling DM's "use your own judgement". If you believe they are equivalent then there's nothing to discuss.

AD&D didn't have a wealth by level guideline. It expected DMs to use common sense in handing out the appropriate amount of treasure for their particular campaign. One DM might have uber-wealthy high level PCs and another might have high level PCs with little more accumulated wealth than they started with at first level and the rules easily supported this because there was no assumption built into the system that PCs of a certain level would have access to a certain amount of equipment. Could you retcon such assumptions into your individual game? Sure! But the rules didn't assume you would or force you to. Please feel free to do what I mentioned above and go back to look at some of those AD&D modules, comparing the pregen characters. The actual wealth amount of those characters varies widely both within an individual module and between modules intended for characters of similar level. That indicates to me that there was no wealth by level standard, but that individual pregens were being designed to take on the challenges in individual modules. The fact that there is significant variance in the actual monetary value of equipment between those characters actually argues against some sort of wealth guideline based on level and argues that the modules were doing just exactly as the rules suggested, namely, providing PCs with equipment that was appropriate to the particular campaign.
 

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