D&D 5E Mearls on other settings

[Yaarel]

IIRC, 4e Dark Sun being such a popular supplement was in no small part due to it being the book that gave us themes and the table for inherent bonuses to replace +X items.

Also the psionic talents were cool, and made great psionic cantrips.

 

[Mercule]

There is our fundamental disagreement; a setting should expand the game, not contract it. Eberron grows D&D with new races and classes. Ravenloft messes with a PC's assumptions, it doesn't take them away. Greyhawk changes the tone of the game, not the rules.

I'd say "a setting should refine the game, not just add more stuff". One of the first things you have to teach kids in art class -- or authors in writing class -- is that more is not always better. Sometimes, the picture is better without showing the sun. Sometimes (most of the time) you don't need five page descriptions of each character as they're introduced.

The big pile of "D&D lore" is a toolkit from which to build settings, adventures, characters, and stories. I honestly don't think any setting should include everything in the books. Something like the Realms or Greyhawk can probably include the core three books (though, I'm not completely sold that dragonborn -- which I like -- actually fit well with either setting). Other settings may need slightly different filters. Any given setting can probably accommodate various new ideas that are added to the toolkit after the setting is released (barbarians in Athas, warlocks in the Realms, etc.).

Anyone who would cram every bloody thing into a setting, though, lacks the vision necessary to be trusted with a professionally published setting. I suppose if that's the raison d'etre for the Realms, so be it. The others really have no need of them. Negative space is a very important concept and it helps to frame things.

 

[Mercule]

As for sorcerers in Dark Sun, I'm hesitant about allowing them. The main problem is that they don't fit into the setting's history. The "natural" method of having supernatural powers in Dark Sun are psionics. Arcane magic was a later addition, and one that required a lot of research to bring about. On the other hand, the deserts are full of weird mutant freaks, and I don't see why sorcerers couldn't be used to represent some of those. The setting would probably need a new sub-class for them though.

Really, the core idea (self-powered) and mechanics (sans VSM components) for Sorcerer fit pretty well for most psionics -- a lot better than the Mystic class that seems to be taking up the mantle in 5E. If you created a new subclass or three (telepath, kineticist, shaper) and banned most of the others* and did something to change the VSM trappings, it'd work quite well. There's already a feat (magic initiate, IIRC) that would let you be a "wild talent". Between the neo-Vancian empowering and Sorcery points, most of the unique mechanics for the 3E Psion have been nicked (not that 3E is the watermark for psionics, but it's probably what we've got). Heck, you could even throw in a line saying, "All Sorcerers on Athas use the Spell Points option from the DMG."

* I'm not so sure the Dragon Bloodline actually wouldn't work. It just wouldn't be nearly as common and wouldn't represent actual dragon heritage.

Warlock, on the other hand, is probably out. I could see it being salvaged as someone drawing on the power of a dragon or some sort of specific, manifested elemental phenomenon, though.

 

[Remathilis]

The more I read of people's "vision" of Dark Sun, the more convinced I am it's not a D&D setting; it's a stand-alone game that has nicked some of D&D's rules. 4-6 classes, 4-5 races, very few monsters, limited magic, and extensive use of the variant DMG rules just to make the setting work.

There is "negative space" and there is "the amount of PHB material we actually use is so small we could reprint them in the back of the campaign book".

 

[Staffan]

Really, the core idea (self-powered) and mechanics (sans VSM components) for Sorcerer fit pretty well for most psionics -- a lot better than the Mystic class that seems to be taking up the mantle in 5E. If you created a new subclass or three (telepath, kineticist, shaper) and banned most of the others* and did something to change the VSM trappings, it'd work quite well. There's already a feat (magic initiate, IIRC) that would let you be a "wild talent". Between the neo-Vancian empowering and Sorcery points, most of the unique mechanics for the 3E Psion have been nicked (not that 3E is the watermark for psionics, but it's probably what we've got). Heck, you could even throw in a line saying, "All Sorcerers on Athas use the Spell Points option from the DMG."

IMO, you can make a fairly good psion by taking the sorcerer, improvising a sub-class to make it more psi-y, and choosing appropriate spells (particularly if you allow stealing a few spells from other spell lists - like heat metal). If I was doing a convention adventure for Dark Sun or Eberron, that's what I'd do. But there's no depth there. There isn't enough room in that psion to make several mechanically distinct characters - rather, it becomes one of the distinct characters you can make with the Sorcerer class.

 

[CydKnight]

I have a different perspective on this than most long time players of D&D since I have not played and edition between 2nd and 5th. I don't even remember the few times I played the Greyhawk setting when I was a teenager and most of the time we played Homebrew. As a new DM starting in 5th Edition, I have been quite entertained with the Forgotten Realms setting. I'm not very creative myself and end up mostly modifying or borrowing from existing published content when I don't use it as written. The setting has very much worked for me and the group I DM.

I also understand the desire for new "official" published settings especially from long time players. If you play long enough, I suppose playing the same realm over and over eventually gets stale and not everyone has the time or creativity to create fresh Homebrew worlds. For this reason alone I think it's great that they are planning to bring back previous setting.

 

[Greg K]

The more I read of people's "vision" of Dark Sun, the more convinced I am it's not a D&D setting; it's a stand-alone game that has nicked some of D&D's rules. 4-6 classes, 4-5 races, very few monsters, limited magic, and extensive use of the variant DMG rules just to make the setting work.

Honestly, other than the D&D name on the covers, I, personally, don't consider Planescape, Spelljammer or Eberron to be D&D despite their inclusion of standard races and classes. Then again, go back to 1e and you had people claiming that Oriental Adventures was not D&D, because D&D requires a faux medieval setting. The same goes for both Al Qadim and Ravenloft: Realms of Terror in 2e. Given that I like Oriental Adventures, Al Qadim, and Ravenloft, who am I to tell fans of Planescape, Spelljammer, or Eberron that they are not playing D&D just because it does not meet personal aesthetics of a D&D setting.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Honestly i'm not thrilled with the attitude toward later interpretations of settings in this thread- I love the 4e Dark Sun setting book and have been hoping the 5e version includes elements from it, especially things like the sorcerer king warlock path. It felt very strong and flavorful to me, with a greater emphasis on survival, an air of hopelessness, and so forth. It was one of the most beloved 4e products overall as well, so i think it's disingenuous to treat it or the edition that spawned it as a failure.

Similarly, I've been a huge Dragonlance fan, and the War of Souls era is every bit as good, if not better, than the original War of the Lance era.

Maybe we can try not gatekeeping setting purity so hard?

I think the 4E setting book is actually solid. Mostly because it returns the setting much more to the status when it was first launched. The only changes were to incorporate 4E mechanics and classes. I did not like 4E at all, but I still use that setting book as a source for my own Dark Sun material in 5E.

I'm thinking for Dragonlance, and maybe FR setting guides, it might be a good idea to have at least a sidebar on the different Eras, and how to adjust the rules to fit different periods of the setting history.

I think the best thing possible would be something a bit more significant than a sidebar. A timeline that describes each era and gives all the necessary fluff for that era, and then a page or two for each era that includes any game mechanics or changes needed.

The more I read of people's "vision" of Dark Sun, the more convinced I am it's not a D&D setting; it's a stand-alone game that has nicked some of D&D's rules. 4-6 classes, 4-5 races, very few monsters, limited magic, and extensive use of the variant DMG rules just to make the setting work.

There is "negative space" and there is "the amount of PHB material we actually use is so small we could reprint them in the back of the campaign book".

This is a matter of semantics, but your assessment is a bit off, in my opinion. There was very little not allowed in the original 2E campaign setting. I think gnomes and half-orcs were the only races barred, replaced by Muls and Thri-kreen. The only class that was barred was the Paladin, which was replaced by the Gladiator. The default assumption of psionics also made the Psionicist class a standard class. Very few restrictions from a player standpoint.

Most of the rest of the differences were more thematic, and more in the hands of the DM than the players. There were not a ton of Dark Sun specific monsters at first, although that grew with time, but most standard monsters were still allowed. Humanoids such as Orcs and Gnolls were more limited. And there were changes to giants, and then the biggest change was that there was only one Dragon.

The 4E era probably goes out of its way to be even more inclusive of the standard D&D races and classes. So I think overall, the amount of chance necessary is overstated, especially to support the conclusion that Dark Sun is not a D&D game.

 

[Mercule]

IMO, you can make a fairly good psion by taking the sorcerer, improvising a sub-class to make it more psi-y, and choosing appropriate spells (particularly if you allow stealing a few spells from other spell lists - like heat metal). If I was doing a convention adventure for Dark Sun or Eberron, that's what I'd do. But there's no depth there. There isn't enough room in that psion to make several mechanically distinct characters - rather, it becomes one of the distinct characters you can make with the Sorcerer class.

I think you could probably do enough sub-classes to add enough variation, including bonus spells. It might not be ideal, though, and I'm totally sympathetic to folks who want something more meaty. I've always used psionics as an excuse for "mutant powers" and haven't been overly invested in any of the particular systems, over the years (I particularly disliked the ectoplasm, bells, psi-crystals, etc. trappings of 3E, though the core mechanics were generally fine). So, the Sorcerer hack works well for what I need.

 

[Mercule]

Honestly, other than the D&D name on the covers, I, personally, don't consider Planescape, Spelljammer or Eberron to be D&D despite their inclusion of standard races and classes. Then again, go back to 1e and you had people claiming that Oriental Adventures was not D&D, because D&D requires a faux medieval setting. The same goes for both Al Qadim and Ravenloft: Realms of Terror in 2e. Given that I like Oriental Adventures, Al Qadim, and Ravenloft, who am I to tell fans of Planescape, Spelljammer, or Eberron that they are not playing D&D just because it does not meet personal aesthetics of a D&D setting.

I can totally appreciate where you're coming from. D&D can stretch, but, at a certain point, it breaks. I would never try to use the PHB to do a modern game. I'm not sure I'd even want to try to use the core mechanics for a modern game, even with new classes (d20 Modern just never "worked" for me).

Personally, I think that things like Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc. are unquestionably "D&D", without really even bending anything. The 2E core Ravenloft is pretty much there, as well. Oriental Adventures, Al Qadim, Maztica, and even Dark Sun still qualify as D&D, to me, but I also think they each would work best with a separate PHB that gave unique classes and races for those genres/settings (they're a bit of both). Really, the 1E Oriental Adventures was pretty much perfect in how it handled things; there was nearly no overlap (I might have just reprinted the Fighter instead of using the Bushi), but everything was 100% compatible and you could do Marco Polo or whatever.

I don't care for Planescape, but I think it also qualifies as being "base-line" D&D. By that, I mean both the underlying mechanics and the specific implementations of them found in the PHB, DMG, and MM (i.e. races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items, etc.) serve the setting well, supporting play without introducing cognitive dissonance. The setting just happens to be somewhat more fantastic than most of the others. It's really in the same boat as Ravenloft -- not vanilla, but still in-universe.

That's also where I'd put Eberron, speaking as an Eberron fan. In some ways, Eberron is the most D&D of settings because some of the core conceits of the setting are around what would things look like if the actual game rules were taken to logical conclusions, specifically, the existence of reliable, predictable magic. In other ways, the setting really bends things. The pulpy action that the setting wants to evoke could probably be done better in something like Savage Worlds (and Kristian Serrano did a pretty well received conversion). Personally, I think it can be run on either side of that line. It works very, very well as "base-line" D&D, with a couple of extra bits (races, class, feats). Even though some folks insist on trying to play Eberron as some sort of pseudo-steampunk setting, that really wasn't the intent of the setting. As long as you don't do that, I'd say that Eberron is actually more "base-line D&D" than Oriental Adventures or Dark Sun. As I said, probably about the same place on the scale that Ravenloft is.

I don't know that much about the other settings (Birthright, Spelljammer, Council of Wyrms). Anything I said would be conjecture. My gut is that some are pretty close to "base-line", but I really don't know.