Mearls' "Stop, Thief!" Article

I tend to find the opposite in the games I've experienced... when a striker goes rushing up to hold the line, even for a moment or two... they often get clobbered... when a Wizard tries to do massive damage... well he usually doesn't have a spell that's going to allow him to do that. And focused fire is the way to go

<snip>

Ok, focused fire was used on the controller on the dinosaur (good tactics and it works!!)... On the other hand the sorcerer (Striker) has to be saved by the paladin because he tries to go head to head with a creature... The fighter is knocked unconscious because he gets isolated...and has to be saved by the paladin... this almost makes me wonder how much better they might be if the Paladin weren't off being a lone wolf
Well, the party still survived a 17th level encounter with 5 eleventh level PCs who started out split into two groups about 20 squares apart (although at full strength daily wise, including the wizard's Arcane Gate which was used to join the two groups together). Admittedly it was 17th level on numbers and not levels of foes - there were a few 10/11th level elites but then a bunch of hangers on of various levels from 9 up. (The monsters were from a range of sources, but the non-MM3/MV ones had their damage upped by me in accordance with the new guidelines.)

At one stage it looked as if a PC retreat might have to be considered - there was a river next to the village that they could have escaped into - but taking control of the behemoth pretty much turned the tide.

Now it's possible my group is tactically very strong without even thinking about it - we've got a guy who did his masters in the mathematics of optimisation, and another guy who used to dominate the Melbourne PBM scene, and past members of our group have been Australian M:TG champions - but on the other hand the ranger in our group doesn't seem to get up the DPR numbers that I see bandied around on this forum, yet this doesn't appear to be doing any harm to the play of the game.

So I'm not really sure how the groups who angst about tactical optimality in the way you describe are approaching the game, but that doesn't seem to fit my experience at all, which is that the game is very forgiving and flexible in the sorts of tactical play it will support.

Perhaps my experience is just very atypical. Or maybe as a GM I push the game in a different direction - a GM who wouldn't let an 11th level paladin push through the wall of a burning cottage would have made a big difference in this particular encounter, for example. Likewise a GM who played the monsters as maximally optimised at all times - whereas I tend to play them to maximise the dynamism and interest of the encounter (again, more like a superhero comic or martial arts movie).

My post was just to highlight that there are more optimal and less optimal choices in 4e.
I think Pmerton meant sub-par rather than suboptimal.
My point was that 4e lets you build a character whose tactics would be suboptimal in the real world, and suboptimal in a semi-realistic squad tactics game, but aren't suboptimal in 4e because of the way the PC has been built. This is part of what I have in mind when I compare it to 4-colour superhero comics - a world in which archers and fist fighters can be more valuable combatants than modern soldiers. 4e is like this.

in games like Heroquest and Legends of Anglerre which pretty much epitomize the type of play permeton is speaking too... optimization and tactics aren't a consideration in the same way they are in a 4e game.
This is true. But I see the tactical/build element of 4e as a technique (in Forge terms) rather than central to the creative agenda. It allows various sorts of expression that a game like HeroQuest wouldn't, but that oldstyle RPGers enjoy (out of habit, if nothing else). But they're a means to an end. What's interesting is not winning per se - that the PCs will win is pretty much built into the mechanics - nor just the pleasure of a cooperative tactical game (a sort of group solitaire), but the how and why of winning, which the tactical stuff helps spell out iin the course of play.

I do think is that it wasn't designed with this specific style of gameplay as it's driver.
I don't know, but it seems to me to be well suited to it. And probably better suited to it than to classic gamist-via-skillful exploration play of a Gygaxian kind, given the suggested guidelines on awarding XP and treasure, and on scaling encounters.

I was wondering why there were no optimization threads for 4e.
I'm not entirely sure how those threads are relevant. I certainly don't accept that they show I'm mistaken in my interpretation of my own play experiences, or of the rulebooks that have helped produce them.

Perhaps, but, if so, the point carries to all other editions as well.
Not in my experience, because of the different implications of their action resolution mechanics, as well as the way those mechanics connect with the PC-build mechanics.

A game in which a single hit can reduce a PC from full health to dead, for example - such as Rolemaster, or any pre-4e version of D&D at low-to-mid levels (depending on class) - won't support the sort of play that I am getting out of 4e. In my view, that's why those games are often associated with GM fudging to mitigate unlucky rolls.
 

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I'm not entirely sure how those threads are relevant.

If it is possible to optimize a character, perforce, some characters must fall below that level of optimization. Moreover, it implies that there are tips and tricks to share to enable that optimization; it doesn't "just happen".

Therefore (1) there are optimal and sub-optimal characters, and (2) without knowing what you're doing, optimal characters don't just happen. Therefore, any statement that players game X do not create sub-optimal characters, due to the nature of game X alone, is manifestly false.

I certainly don't accept that they show I'm mistaken in my interpretation of my own play experiences, or of the rulebooks that have helped produce them.

And well I know it! Even when you are swayed by an argument, you seem more conservative than I.

Conversely, when an argument has demonstrated that I am wrong, I accept my error, admit it, and change my mind. Most recently, this occurred when it was demonstrated that the Skill Challenge mechanic could be used to produce effects that I would be happy with in-game.....even if the vast majority of examples I've seen leave me utterly cold.

So, I don't expect you to start a "Raven Crowking is Right" parade; I just want to provide you the opportunity to see where I am coming from, if that is an opportunity you want!

Obviously, you know your own play experiences better than anyone else. Equally obviously, though, they are not universal, and it is possible to produce sub-optimal characters in 4e, by accident, simply because you don't grasp how to optimize a character. Or those threads would not exist, or be extremely barren if they did.

Not in my experience, because of the different implications of their action resolution mechanics, as well as the way those mechanics connect with the PC-build mechanics.

A game in which a single hit can reduce a PC from full health to dead, for example - such as Rolemaster, or any pre-4e version of D&D at low-to-mid levels (depending on class) - won't support the sort of play that I am getting out of 4e. In my view, that's why those games are often associated with GM fudging to mitigate unlucky rolls.

I'm not sure how that is relevant at all.

If you only want X from a game, then characters who are good primarily at not-X might seem useless to you. Granted. But, that doesn't make a character "useless" in any objective sense. If a game is designed to do more than X, then it is going to produce a greater variety of characters, and characters that shine at more than just X.

You can say, game X "won't support the sort of play that I am getting out of 4e" -- but if you are honest, you should also then agree to the obvious corollary -- that 4e won't support the sort of play that some others are getting out of X.

Different games support different things, with differing levels of success. That out to be obvious, and non-controversial. Nor should pointing that out be considered "edition warring" or, worse yet, supporting "bad rules".

(And I know that the quotes in that last paragraph are not yours, pemerton, nor your general opinion AFAICT....but they are representative of some others in this thread.)


RC
 

I was wondering why there were no optimization threads for 4e.

Now, I guess, I know.

I am not sure you are completely correct:

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And it seems to be every active. My (agonizing) experience with 4E has been that you can build a suboptimal character very easily by accident and, since they never die, you suffer through these design mistakes for a long, long time.

My warlord experience (by misreading commander's strike) was miserable beyond words and took forever to address. If you mess up ability scores (a fun looking rogue design) it is even worse.
 

There's been "optimizing" and power gaming in pretty much every edition.

What I like about the current one is it doesn't seem to throw things drastically out of whack if one member of your group loves to power game, and another just wants to lazily build a semi random character.

Best of both worlds, and makes my life as a DM that much easier.
 



If it is possible to optimize a character, perforce, some characters must fall below that level of optimization. Moreover, it implies that there are tips and tricks to share to enable that optimization; it doesn't "just happen".
If you only want X from a game, then characters who are good primarily at not-X might seem useless to you.

<snip>

Different games support different things, with differing levels of success. That out to be obvious, and non-controversial.
The second paragraph here I regard as non-controversial. But answering the question of what range of Xs a given game suppots I regard as quite controversial - my views about what 4e supports, for example (a certain sort of conflict-via-combat driven thematic play, using traditional fantasy tropes) seems to draw only limited agreement. (Imaro, for example, has consistently disagreed with it over many months and many threads now.)

My views about what 2nd ed AD&D supports are equally controversial - consistent with the Forge critique of that edition, I think it best supports psuedo-thematic railroading, but it's an edition with many advocates on this board.

But anyway, I think the second paragraph I've quoted pushes somewhat against the first, because optimisation is relevant to some goal of play for which the mechanics are being deployed (and the 4e DMG has a brief discussion of this). So, for example, the wizard in my game is a Tome mage whose feats include Skill Training (Dungeoneering), Deep Sage (a situational bonus to Dungeoneering plus speak, read and write Deep Speech = 4e's version of Undercommon) and two Arcane Familiar feats, and who has a starting 20/14 WIS split but has taken an Invoker (= WIS-based) Paragon Path. And one feature of that path is to give the PC yet another WIS-based power (a Cleric at-will an encounter power). This is a PC that would never pass muster on the Char Ops board, but who plays a crucial role in driving my game, because of his relationship to the worship of the Raven Queen, Erathis, Ioun and Vecna, and of his gradually growing collection of Rod-of-7-parts bit.

I don't think that DPR is the be-all and end-all of RPGing, or of 4e RPGing. And more controversially (like I said, settling the relevant values of X is not easy) I think that nothing in the rulebooks for 4e suggest otherwise. (That said, I haven't read the Players' Strategy Guide. It may have a different tone from the other books that talk about PC-build and encounter design.)

My (agonizing) experience with 4E has been that you can build a suboptimal character very easily by accident and, since they never die, you suffer through these design mistakes for a long, long time.

<snip>

If you mess up ability scores (a fun looking rogue design) it is even worse.
without knowing what you're doing, optimal characters don't just happen. Therefore, any statement that players game X do not create sub-optimal characters, due to the nature of game X alone, is manifestly false.
I think I may have been unclear. What I was saying in reply to Imaro was the point I reiteratd above - that 4e is forgiving of what would be, in the real world, suboptimal tactical play. That is, differently from Imaro's experience, I have found that 4e supports a very flexible and varied approach to play, both across PCs and for any given PC (thus, the abilit of the sorcerer on occasion to hold the front line when the dwarf fighter falters).

It is true that it is possible to build a PC who won't play in the way that one hoped (which seems to be Votan's point). This is where a group's basic tactical game playing experience may be relevant - my players are mostly pretty good at seeing the implications, for play, of a particular build choice. GM accommodation is also important, in my view. The *Power books for 4e emphasise that GMs may wish to be accommodating of their players when they want to rebuild to include new options/elements. I go further, and all my players have rebuilt their PCs in the early levels to better achieve the goas they were looking for (three re-stattings, one rebuild as hybrid, one PC change to shift from half-elf warlock to drow sorcerer).

This is another area where goals of play matter. For those playing in a certain sort of gamist way, making players live through the in-play consequences of accidental design choices is important. But in the way I prefer to play, it's an unnecessary burden.
 

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] - with the new monster math, do you still think that is the case? edit: "that 4e is forgiving of what would be, in the real world, suboptimal tactical play."

I think there are sub-optimal characters and invalid characters. If I decided to play a Fighter with 8 STR that would be an invalid character. I can't really make decisions because none of my choices are going to matter; I'm going to fail no matter what choices I make. However, I think that even with 14 STR my PC would still be valid, even if sub-optimal. (The big question is how the other people in my group would judge my choice.)

I'm not sure if that's true with the new math for monster damage. The game seems a lot more challenging now than it was when it was first released.
 
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The second paragraph here I regard as non-controversial. But answering the question of what range of Xs a given game suppots I regard as quite controversial - my views about what 4e supports, for example (a certain sort of conflict-via-combat driven thematic play, using traditional fantasy tropes) seems to draw only limited agreement. (Imaro, for example, has consistently disagreed with it over many months and many threads now.)

Yes, because I have seen no practical or objective proof that you're interpretation of the type of play the 4e rules push/support are anything but... you're interpretation... especially when the adventures, guides, etc. don't push or stress this way of playing.

I don't think that DPR is the be-all and end-all of RPGing, or of 4e RPGing. And more controversially (like I said, settling the relevant values of X is not easy) I think that nothing in the rulebooks for 4e suggest otherwise. (That said, I haven't read the Players' Strategy Guide. It may have a different tone from the other books that talk about PC-build and encounter design.)

They don't think DPR is the end all and be all on the char op boards either (this would actually be kinda stupid for leaders or controllers to be judged on) but at the same time... it is what a striker as laid out in the PHB is suppose to be contributing to the party... mainly damage.

As to the Player's Strategy Guide (along with most of the adventures, stuff published in Dragon and Dungeon, published skill challenges, etc.) it does not seem to, in it's implementation by the developers of the game, support this idea of "conflict-via-combat driven thematic play, using traditional fantasy tropes" as 4e's play goal. They seem to very much support gamist challenge play.

I think I may have been unclear. What I was saying in reply to Imaro was the point I reiteratd above - that 4e is forgiving of what would be, in the real world, suboptimal tactical play. That is, differently from Imaro's experience, I have found that 4e supports a very flexible and varied approach to play, both across PCs and for any given PC (thus, the abilit of the sorcerer on occasion to hold the front line when the dwarf fighter falters).


I think many players who faced Irontooth, and died, would disagree about how forgiving 4e is to suboptimal tactical play. Again, IMO this is nothing more than an imergent property of whether the DM decides to play in an optimal or suboptimal manner in D&D against his players.
 

I think there are sub-optimal characters and invalid characters. If I decided to play a Fighter with 8 STR that would be an invalid character. I can't really make decisions because none of my choices are going to matter; I'm going to fail no matter what choices I make. However, I think that even with 14 STR my PC would still be valid, even if sub-optimal. (The big question is how the other people in my group would judge my choice.)

I'm not sure if that's true with the new math for monster damage. The game seems a lot more challenging now than it was when it was first released.
I agree that STR 8 on a fighter is invalid in your sense.

I think 14 would be marginal. The fighter in my game had starting strength 16 (but is a dwarf, and so still a good fighter), and also has serious DEX, CON and WIS (to support a polearm-axe build). He is paragon-pathed as a Warpriest, and was happy to be using a WIS that started at 15, but with the newest errata has got his Warpriest powers onto STR.

The wizard in my game is multi-class and paragon pathed as an Invoker, with starting stats of INT 20/WIS 14. But he has Action Surge (+3 to hit on action point) plus a reroll paragon path feature to support his WIS attacks.

On the other hand, we don't use the Expertise feats in my game and to date play hasn't suffered. So 14 together with Expertise would strike me as perhaps viable. I think that that sort of character would want to bring a lot of other stuff to the table, though - noticeably good skills, or good ways to get combat advantage, etc.

with the new monster math, do you still think that is the case? edit: "that 4e is forgiving of what would be, in the real world, suboptimal tactical play."
In my view, yes - keeping in mind that the play in question may not be suboptimal given the way that a particular PC is built.

In the real world, for example, it is suboptimal to get hurt. One of the PCs in my game, though, is a dwarven fighter with Toughness and a Cloak of the Walking Wounded. He can second wind as a minor action, and likes to do so only after being bloodied (because the cloak then lets him spend two healing surges). This leads the PC to take risks and enter situations that, in the real world, would be stupid.

The same PC also has a daily, Brazen Assault, that has the effect of granting all enemies combat advantage while granting him Resist all 5. If he uses this daily, it has a further impact on what that PC can do, which can potentially lead to further deviations from real-world optimality.

The new monster maths, which is essentially +half level damage to all monsters, doesn't seem to me to have changed the dynamics all that much. It was introduced just at the point in my game where I can see how, without it, I would have been tempted to start using significantly higher level monsters.

Bottom line for me on optimality: if you try to build your PC radically against class/role lines (eg the STR 8 fighter, perhaps the 14 STR fighter unless there's a lot of other good stuff your PC is bringing to the table) then you'll be in trouble; and if you try and play your PC against your build then you'll be in trouble; BUT it's not hard to build a PC who has viable options in the game that would not be very viable in real life (Walking Wounded, Brazen Assault etc); AND it's not hard to build a PC who has an interesting and varied range of viable options (even the archer ranger in my game, who is the closest to a one-trick pony, can do stuff with Acrobatics, taking control of Behemoths etc - though the player did hybrid him to cleric once the rules for that came out, in what was dubbed "Operation: Give my PC more to do than Twin Strike!").

To me, the game doesn't seem to play in the relentless or monistic way that Imaro is describing. And if it's very different for my players, they haven't communicated that experience to me.
 

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