Mearls' "Stop, Thief!" Article

What I feel is missing here, based on my own experience, is that unlike many combat-focused fantasy RPGs 4e allows the player to signficiantly dictate tactical soundness by choices made both in PC building and in play, with the result that the play of combat can be very expressive of the character of the PC.

If others find it more constraining in this respect than in other versions of D&D or other classic fanatsy RPGs, that's quite interesting, and quite a different experience from mine.

Indeed. There are characters I've played in 4e that use tactics that in earlier editions or by other characters would be utterly insane. My Bravura Warlord springs to mind. He quite intentionally leaves himself wide open for attacks (Brash Assault) to try to provoke the enemy into going off balance. And has a charge that if he even messes it up slightly, the enemy gets a free melee basic attack. But he's built that way and because they are his tactics, when he does them (more carefully than it looks) he can get away with them whereas for another character this would be incredibly tactically unsound. It expresses his character and approach every bit as much as my mage's hiding and controlling the battlefield does. (Or my Malediction Invoker's dislike of casting her powerful spells...)
 

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Balesir, your definition completely defies and contradicts your earlier statements and statements within your most recent post.

You say you need "free will" and you "decide what they wish to do".

This is impossible in most boardgames (especially Monopoly), without house rules.
I think you misunderstood the scope I was including with my description of "role". Let me try to paint it clearly:

Can you, personally, fly by flapping your arms? I know I can't - it's physically impossible, in this world, for me to do so. And yet I retain at least the illusion that I possess free will. Likewise for a "character" in "Monopolyworld". The physics of their setting both allow them to do and prevent them from doing things in ways that are quite alien to us, living in the "real" world. That does not mean that they "lack free will" - just that the ways in which they may use it within the "physics" of the world they inhabit are different (and very much more restricted!) than those available to us.

Such a world would be very challenging to play "immersively" - but that does not prevent it being possible to roleplay. The contradiction you claim is not there, I'm afraid.

Not when it's based around interacting with them on an optimal tactical level as opossed to an organic or narrative level.
Does this not assume that the tactical "level" is distinct from the "narrative" one? In D&D I am sceptical that this should normally be the case. I know that, had I (in my younger days ;) ) taken up "adventuring" as a career, I would absolutely have wanted to get myself schooled in "optimal tactics"; I think it's only reasonable to assume that most D&D characters will focus on it, to some extent, too. Even though this describes a limitation on the characters played, I think that is already implicit, in that the characters played are automatically assumed to be "adventurers", or "Heroes". In other words, the focus on tactics is tied to the game "fiction" through the assumed topic of both characters and in-game activities.

That is food for thought! I think you and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] are right - it is a matter of degrees. I don't care about how much and what kind of food or drink a PC consumed before the fight, even though I know that would have an effect on its outcome. (I might add a -2 penalty if the character is drunk, but that's about it.) Thinking about it, that fine detail of actions is a personal preference of mine; it's probably why I've always preferred Palladium Fantasy's combat system over D&D's. (Yes, seriously! ;) )
I think it's a very reasonable personal preference, if a little limiting - it certainly does not seem uncommon. It is as well to remember that it is a preference, though, not a universal requirement ;)

Here's the same thing, but in 4E's general rules:

[sblock=Regular 4E]I draw the map and tell players that it's 120' to the ground. I make the Stealth check for the NPC against the Passive Perception, and fail. The PCs notice the invisible NPC.

The NPC wins Init and throws the grappling hook, for which she has a special power - Ranged 5, Level + 3 vs. Fort, Hit: 1d6+4 damage, Pull 3 and Grabbed. She hits. Kronos is Pulled, but makes his hazardous terrain saving throw to avoid falling.

Dhalia grabs the rope and attempts to pull the NPC adjacent to her using an action the rules don't cover; I cast the attack as a check, saying it does no damage but instead Pull 5 and Prone. Dhalia attacks using Str vs. Will (because of the Spider Climb) and succeeds.

Kronos drops down to the next level using their rope.

The NPC rises from Prone and Climbs away, triggering an AoO. Dhalia misses, then moves adjacent to the NPC and Grabs her.

The NPC casts Sleep and misses; Dhalia takes an AoO and misses. Dhalia makes an Intimidate check calling for her surrender and as DM I make a judgement call that, even though the NPC isn't Bloodied, she will surrender on a successful roll. Dhalia succeeds.[/sblock]
I would probably see Dhalia using "Come and Get It" to pull the assassin to her, and as a fighter her OA would stop them moving away if it hit in any case (and would be entirely consistent with "holding a sword to her throat" as hit points are not representative of physical damage, at least until the target is bloodied). But, yeah - basically, what you said :).
 

Yeah, I'm understanding other people's positions more and more as we talk about this. One thing that happens to me is that I easily shift back into my default assumptions about play, which are biased by my own desires. That's why we go over this so often and I don't "get it"; it can be hard for me to grasp that different point of view, especially when I'm focused on something else and some time has passed.

Somebody please xp LostSoul for this wisdom as I must spread more around etc.
 

My contention - and it's based primarily in my own experience, which may well be atypical - is that 4e lends itself to building a PC, and then playing that PC, in such a way that being expressive of the character is not suboptimal.

See I don't find this true... it is pretty common knowledge that the ranger is objectively a better striker than the warlock thus to play a warlock is to choose to play a sub-optimal striker... now that's not to say one can't have fun playing a warlock or survive with one but it is a sub-optimal choice for doing it's designated role as opposed to a ranger.

A simple example is the AC rules, that guarantee that ACs are in a pretty narrow range compared to earlier editions (where a starting MU might have AC 10 - 50%+ chance for NPCs/monsters to hit - while a starting fighter have AC as low as 2, meaning a 20% or less chance for monsters to hit). This means that choices by players as to the sorts of risks to which they expose their PCs are less constrained by considerations of "will this kill me" and more open to considerations of "what would it be like to try this?!".

Hmmm, I could see a case for this but is this really why the math was made this way or is this an emergent property of the fact that the game was made to have less swinginess and more accurate tools for designing appropriate challenge levels for tactical combat? I would say it's an emergent property because this type of stuff isn't discussed in the core rules for 4e. It's great that this is possible but is this the default expectation for how the game is suppose to be played?

Also, as a side note, I think you are discounting the vast difference in HP's that still exsist as well as healing surges... One good hit on a Striker can mean more than half his HP's are gone and he's bloodied while the same hit doesn't bloody a defender.

Page 42 damage expressions, which aim at keeping the damage from stunts on a par with encounter powers, are a similar example.

But this is still ultimately determined by the DM... not the rules. The DM picks the damage expression, DC, etc. and thus he decides whether the action to perform stunts, the damage from stunts, and conditions (which there aren't really good guidelines for on page 42) are worse, better or equal to encounter powers. I feel that the DM decision mode is further reinforced by the fact that this table isn't mentioned or noted in the PHB.

So what I see in 4e is things like the drow sorcerer from time to time taking the front line (especially if the dwarf polearm fighter is in poor health or down) while muttering to himself about the unreliability of dwarves. Of course the sorcerer isn't a defender, and so can't do this for a whole combat, but he has sufficient resources (a range of defensive and aggressive close bursts) and the AC and hit points that mean this is not the death sentence that it would be in RM, RQ or classic D&D.

Well couldn't anyone who finds a way to increase his AC in previous editions do this (and the HP thing works itself out once a level or two are under a character's belt), and again I still think the disparity in hp's and healing surges still place pretty big restrictions on certain classes being able to take these types of out-of-role actions, unless it's theri secondary role and well then it's not so much you're making thematic decisions for your character as much as you are fulfilling the role you were given in the game.

My experience with issues like focus-fire vs failures of coordination, choices as to who to heal, and the like are similar - the system seems to me to be very tolerant of player choices, meaning that an interesting range of options is available without the mechanics pushing always in a single direction.

See I tend to find the opposite in the games I've experienced... when a striker goes rushing up to hold the line, even for a moment or two... they often get clobbered... when a Wizard tries to do massive damage... well he usually doesn't have a spell that's going to allow him to do that. And focused fire is the way to go. Now there are exceptions like the godking fighter of 4e who, with the right choices can reach almost optimal striker levels of damage output and have the fortitude and defensive powers of the defender role... In fact I'd say his only weakness is the number of skills he gets... but I think he's the exception in 4e not the rule.



Ok, focused fire was used on the controller on the dinosaur (good tactics and it works!!)... On the other hand the sorcerer (Striker) has to be saved by the paladin because he tries to go head to head with a creature... The fighter is knocked unconscious because he gets isolated...and has to be saved by the paladin... this almost makes me wonder how much better they might be if the Paladin weren't off being a lone wolf.


The chaos sorcerer and the tome wizard, despite both being multi-target arcane casters who use a range of damage types and exercise quite a degree of control, also play very differently in ways that are expressive of their personality - brash, quick, brutal vs cautious, deliberate, sometimes subtle.

But this can be done in any system and I'm still not seeing how 4e as opposed to many other systems facilitates any of this better.

Very obviously this is not great literature (hence my reference to Marvel Comics above!). But it's not nothing, either. And it's supported by and expressed via the mechanics in a way that I find quite different from classic D&D, RM, RQ etc.

I'm not saying this can't be done by a creative DM with 4e (though in turn I would argue that it cold be done in virtually any edition by a creative DM)... what I do think is that it wasn't designed with this specific style of gameplay as it's driver.
 
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See I don't find this true... it is pretty common knowledge that the ranger is objectively a better striker than the warlock thus to play a warlock is to choose to play a sub-optimal striker... now that's not to say one can't have fun playing a warlock or survive with one but it is a sub-optimal choice for doing it's designated role as opposed to a ranger.

I think it is quite a bit less clear-cut than this. Rangers are highly effective. OTOH if I am well versed in playing a Warlock, my tactical proclivities favor the sort of play that the Warlock excels at, and the Warlock fits better into the particular party then the Warlock is a perfectly good choice. I'd also say that it heavily depends on the level you're playing at. During low heroic tier a Ranger will most likely outperform any Warlock most of the time. OTOH at mid-paragon and higher that becomes less and less true. A well-built high level Warlock is NASTY. Not to say high level Ranger isn't, but the relative strengths of the two classes do change a good bit. It is hard to make entirely general statements about which class is better.

That isn't to say all classes are made equal of course. That would be an ideal for 4e in theory, but it will never be achieved. You just have to accept that small variations will exist and decide what is important to you.

Hmmm, I could see a case for this but is this really why the math was made this way or is this an emergent property of the fact that the game was made to have less swinginess and more accurate tools for designing appropriate challenge levels for tactical combat? I would say it's an emergent property because this type of stuff isn't discussed in the core rules for 4e. It's great that this is possible but is this the default expectation for how the game is suppose to be played?

Also, as a side note, I think you are discounting the vast difference in HP's that still exsist as well as healing surges... One good hit on a Striker can mean more than half his HP's are gone and he's bloodied while the same hit doesn't bloody a defender.

Eh, still, it is MUCH more possible for any arbitrary character to manage in a situation not conducive to its main role than in say AD&D.

But this is still ultimately determined by the DM... not the rules. The DM picks the damage expression, DC, etc. and thus he decides whether the action to perform stunts, the damage from stunts, and conditions (which there aren't really good guidelines for on page 42) are worse, better or equal to encounter powers. I feel that the DM decision mode is further reinforced by the fact that this table isn't mentioned or noted in the PHB.

It might be good if it was called out more explicitly in the PHB, yes.

Well couldn't anyone who finds a way to increase his AC in previous editions do this (and the HP thing works itself out once a level or two are under a character's belt), and again I still think the disparity in hp's and healing surges still place pretty big restrictions on certain classes being able to take these types of out-of-role actions, unless it's theri secondary role and well then it's not so much you're making thematic decisions for your character as much as you are fulfilling the role you were given in the game.

Well, consider the 1e AD&D Magic User. He's got d4 hit points. Even at 6th level that means average 15 hit points. He's WELL within the range of single hit kill by any melee monster even close to his level. What his AC will be at that point is hard to say, it will depend heavily on the treasure received. He could be anywhere from AC 10 to AC 4. Most likely he's still far from the fighter's AC, which at that point is unlikely to be worse than 4 and is probably below that. As a level 6 MU I wouldn't in any circumstances risk moving into melee range. I MIGHT survive a round or two of it, with luck.

OTOH the 4e wizard will have an AC that is probably only a couple points off from the fighter. He will have a bunch less hit points, but he's still certain to survive a couple of hits, has effective attacks he can use from close range (or really really should), etc. And this is true from level 1. It may not have been an outright design goal for 4e that was stated up front, but I suspect it was a welcome effect of the design and encouraged the devs to go in that direction.

I'm not saying this can't be done by a creative DM with 4e (though in turn I would argue that it cold be done in virtually any edition by a creative DM)... what I do think is that it wasn't designed with this specific style of gameplay as it's driver.

It is hard to say, but simply by making the game less swingy you get that effect and I'm thinking this was pretty obvious to the 4e devs when they designed the game. I can hardly imagine they never noticed this effect.

Honestly the type of game you're in is going to make a big difference in how much you feel you have to optimize and what you can risk doing. There's a pretty good chunk of variability in 4e play. If you play with a whole slew of tactical optimizers and the DM is throwing tons of super tough combat encounters at you, then you probably want to optimize, may not want to play a concept that is a bit lower down on the optimization scale, and might not take so many risks. In most casual games though? You can afford to do pretty much what you feel like and not worry about it. In AD&D? You better play to type, Magic Users DO NOT get caught in melee, and fighters better be expecting to stand on the front lines and take most of the hits. 4e seems more flexible this way to me.
 

My contention - and it's based primarily in my own experience, which may well be atypical - is that 4e lends itself to building a PC, and then playing that PC, in such a way that being expressive of the character is not suboptimal.

I was wondering why there were no optimization threads for 4e.

Now, I guess, I know.
 

See I don't find this true... it is pretty common knowledge that the ranger is objectively a better striker than the warlock thus to play a warlock is to choose to play a sub-optimal striker... now that's not to say one can't have fun playing a warlock or survive with one but it is a sub-optimal choice for doing it's designated role as opposed to a ranger.

Questionable - although rangers certainly do more damage. But missing the point. The point is that the Powers system opens up tactics - for instance the almost insane behaviour of the Bravura Warlord or the isolate and pound strategy of the Avenger.

Well couldn't anyone who finds a way to increase his AC in previous editions do this

The HP disparity was much greater - one hit kills. In 4e wizards get 4hp/level, and fighters get six (I think). Around 50% more hp to the fighter. In 1e, wizards get d4hp per level and fighters get d10 - or over twice the hit points. If the wizard's trying to hold the line, things have gone pear shaped. And badly so. But he won't be brushed aside in quite the way he would in earlier editions, going down to one hit. It's a move of last resort rather than utterly suicidal.

Edit: And I think Pmerton meant sub-par rather than suboptimal. It's hard to accidently make a useless character in 4e at heroic. This wasn't true in older editions.
 

P1NBACK, I don't think you're edition warring but I do disagree with some of your characterisation of 4e.

I think I'm generalizing, and that's being taken out of context as if every single rule in 4E falls under the category I am describing. That's not necessarily the case. I'm talking about a general design shift from previous editions (and other RPGs in general) in 4E.

The difference between a 4E fireball and earlier editions lies not in the "description" but in the implications in 4E that a fireball is a "power" that transcends the fiction, whereas in earlier editions, a fireball is a real fiery object being summoned that could potentially wreck equipment, etc.

Earlier editions relied heavily on the description of the actions. We described, then applied rules. 4E is largely the opposite. We apply rules, then describe (and that's why there are arguments I describe below about fiction vs. rules).

That's a generalized statement about how some people play 4E. As has been pointed out, anyone can house rule 4E or play it however they want. I can change the rules of Monopoly to fit any sort of imagined play I want.

But, we see this sort of mentality all the time, especially on this forum, where people will advise DMs against "nerfing" powers because of the fiction. Why is that?

I think it's largely to do with a disconnect between some of the mechanics and the fiction actually happening in the game and a general play and design ethos found in 4E.
 

Edit: And I think Pmerton meant sub-par rather than suboptimal. It's hard to accidently make a useless character in 4e at heroic. This wasn't true in older editions.

Sorry, but I've already seen threads in which the opposite is claimed.....that not building a character the "right" way makes him useless to the party.

In addition, the existence of optimization threads is a strong indication that some builds are more powerful than others. In which case, it should be obvious that some are also "sub-par".

As to whether a character is "useless" or not....well, that is highly dependent upon the context, isn't it? I will agree that 4e put a far greater emphasis on a single context (grid-based combat) than any other edition, and that combat consumes such a large amount of play time that a character not optimized for combat is going to seem subpar, but I have run games for and played many non-combat-optimized characters in previous editions, and I have yet to see one that was useless.

YMMV.


RC
 

I think it is quite a bit less clear-cut than this. Rangers are highly effective. OTOH if I am well versed in playing a Warlock, my tactical proclivities favor the sort of play that the Warlock excels at, and the Warlock fits better into the particular party then the Warlock is a perfectly good choice. I'd also say that it heavily depends on the level you're playing at. During low heroic tier a Ranger will most likely outperform any Warlock most of the time. OTOH at mid-paragon and higher that becomes less and less true. A well-built high level Warlock is NASTY. Not to say high level Ranger isn't, but the relative strengths of the two classes do change a good bit. It is hard to make entirely general statements about which class is better.

That isn't to say all classes are made equal of course. That would be an ideal for 4e in theory, but it will never be achieved. You just have to accept that small variations will exist and decide what is important to you.

My post was just to highlight that there are more optimal and less optimal choices in 4e.



Eh, still, it is MUCH more possible for any arbitrary character to manage in a situation not conducive to its main role than in say AD&D.

Is it... even with the wider range of spells available to casters?



It might be good if it was called out more explicitly in the PHB, yes.

I think even more importantly if that was a design goal it would have been.



Well, consider the 1e AD&D Magic User. He's got d4 hit points. Even at 6th level that means average 15 hit points. He's WELL within the range of single hit kill by any melee monster even close to his level. What his AC will be at that point is hard to say, it will depend heavily on the treasure received. He could be anywhere from AC 10 to AC 4. Most likely he's still far from the fighter's AC, which at that point is unlikely to be worse than 4 and is probably below that. As a level 6 MU I wouldn't in any circumstances risk moving into melee range. I MIGHT survive a round or two of it, with luck.

Again, what about the spells available to him?

OTOH the 4e wizard will have an AC that is probably only a couple points off from the fighter. He will have a bunch less hit points, but he's still certain to survive a couple of hits, has effective attacks he can use from close range (or really really should), etc. And this is true from level 1. It may not have been an outright design goal for 4e that was stated up front, but I suspect it was a welcome effect of the design and encouraged the devs to go in that direction.

Again I question whether a wizard or cleric in previous editons with access to the wider range of spells and a little creativity could not, aleit in a less direct manner do the same thing.


It is hard to say, but simply by making the game less swingy you get that effect and I'm thinking this was pretty obvious to the 4e devs when they designed the game. I can hardly imagine they never noticed this effect.

Honestly the type of game you're in is going to make a big difference in how much you feel you have to optimize and what you can risk doing. There's a pretty good chunk of variability in 4e play. If you play with a whole slew of tactical optimizers and the DM is throwing tons of super tough combat encounters at you, then you probably want to optimize, may not want to play a concept that is a bit lower down on the optimization scale, and might not take so many risks. In most casual games though? You can afford to do pretty much what you feel like and not worry about it. In AD&D? You better play to type, Magic Users DO NOT get caught in melee, and fighters better be expecting to stand on the front lines and take most of the hits. 4e seems more flexible this way to me.

Yes, but again in games like Heroquest and Legends of Anglerre which pretty much epitomize the type of play permeton is speaking too... optimization and tactics aren't a consideration in the same way they are in a 4e game.
 

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