Mechanics of Death aka How have you died?
- Thread starter Markn
- Start date
Great stuff everyone, keep it coming!
I see that a lot of people have had deaths due to 3 failed death saves. Our group, tactics wise, is very quick to raise someone who is down. We rarely experience even 2 death saves by the same character before he is back on his feet. Our party has a Warlord and a Cleric so there are plenty of options for healing and this may account for the lack of death saves in our group.
On a side note, we had our latest session this evening and our Level 11 fighter was 10 HP away from death. The Hydra we were fighting hit him quite a few times on his last attack and almost killed him. But in the end he didn't die.
I see that a lot of people have had deaths due to 3 failed death saves. Our group, tactics wise, is very quick to raise someone who is down. We rarely experience even 2 death saves by the same character before he is back on his feet. Our party has a Warlord and a Cleric so there are plenty of options for healing and this may account for the lack of death saves in our group.
On a side note, we had our latest session this evening and our Level 11 fighter was 10 HP away from death. The Hydra we were fighting hit him quite a few times on his last attack and almost killed him. But in the end he didn't die.
stonegod
Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
Two deaths in my RL campaign: One Human Avenger of the Silver Flame (1st level), one Human Warlord (2nd).
The first death was caused by a trap doing recurring damage. The avenger had dropped mainly because the battlerager minotaur could not get in earlier to keep the avenger from suffering the majority of attacks. The warlord was also out of inspiring words. Died of negative damage over bloodied.
The second death was due to three death saves. The warlord and the minotaur both dropped after all inspiring words were gone, both were raised again by Heal checks (spending their second wind). Both dropped again and couldn't be reached in time to prevent the warlord missing her third save.
In the RL KotS game I played, all but my paladin died at the end (and the paladin had 1 hp, no HS, and 2 failed saving throws and the BBEG was at full health [stupid regeneration]). 2 died of damage, 2 of failed saving throws.
The first death was caused by a trap doing recurring damage. The avenger had dropped mainly because the battlerager minotaur could not get in earlier to keep the avenger from suffering the majority of attacks. The warlord was also out of inspiring words. Died of negative damage over bloodied.
The second death was due to three death saves. The warlord and the minotaur both dropped after all inspiring words were gone, both were raised again by Heal checks (spending their second wind). Both dropped again and couldn't be reached in time to prevent the warlord missing her third save.
In the RL KotS game I played, all but my paladin died at the end (and the paladin had 1 hp, no HS, and 2 failed saving throws and the BBEG was at full health [stupid regeneration]). 2 died of damage, 2 of failed saving throws.
MarkB
Legend
That can be a major factor. I play LFR, and sometimes a group will end up without a dedicated healer. It makes a big difference.
Even in a party with one healer, if there's also only one Defender, or if there's a melee striker that insists on rushing in without support, they can go through the party's healing resources quite quickly in a tough battle. Once those two ranged heals are gone and characters start using their second winds, it can be very difficult to keep them on their feet - and if the combination of terrain and enemies constrains movement, a character being isolated to bleed out from failed saves can easily happen.
LFR encounters, in particular, are infamous for their "six squares of doom" starting areas - a short section of 10-foot-wide corridor opening into the room, which an unfortunate set of initiative rolls can leave all or most of the party trapped within for much of the combat. If only a couple of characters slip through before the way is blocked by foes (or use teleportation or other special abilities to get past afterwards), they may get isolated and killed before the rest of the party can break out.
The more recent LFR adventures tend to be better designed, but it can still crop up sometimes.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
What page has the details about dying from being in a sarcophagus?
I guess I'm one of those other side guys, for whom death seems to lie in every corner, and who the reaper stalks like an overprotective mother-in-law.
In my Wednesday night game I've probably died 9 or 10 times personally, tying with one other player, with everyone else ranging from 3 to 6 or so.
In my Thursday game (I DM this one) I've killed one player twice, with most of the rest of the group once.
A lot of times these deaths are TPKs, or more accurately, near TPKs, where all but one or two characters die. I'm trying to think of some times when we only lost one or two, lets see what I can come up with ...
Low level Druid - ran up next to two Needlefang Drake swarms, was tripped and attacked. Started his turn, was attacked by the swarm aura, dropped to negative bloody instantly.
Mid level Rogue - Feystepped behind enemy lines, promptly dropped unconscious. Bled out, always further than 5 from the healers (who were too busy trying to keep the rest of us alive anyway)
Low level Rogue - crit two or three times in a row without healing; instant negative bloody.
Mid level Swordmage - wrapping up tough fight, low HP. Walks into hazard which instantly kills him (out of the party's sight at that ... they still wonder whatever happened to that guy who went into the smoke and never came out ...)
Ongoing damage can be a culprit, but I think the vast majority of our deaths are from failing too many death ticks. Healers run out of healing, second winds are used up, and getting over to stabilize the dying just isn't always possible, with monsters pushing, pulling, slowing, and immobilizing people.
In my Wednesday night game I've probably died 9 or 10 times personally, tying with one other player, with everyone else ranging from 3 to 6 or so.
In my Thursday game (I DM this one) I've killed one player twice, with most of the rest of the group once.
A lot of times these deaths are TPKs, or more accurately, near TPKs, where all but one or two characters die. I'm trying to think of some times when we only lost one or two, lets see what I can come up with ...
Low level Druid - ran up next to two Needlefang Drake swarms, was tripped and attacked. Started his turn, was attacked by the swarm aura, dropped to negative bloody instantly.
Mid level Rogue - Feystepped behind enemy lines, promptly dropped unconscious. Bled out, always further than 5 from the healers (who were too busy trying to keep the rest of us alive anyway)
Low level Rogue - crit two or three times in a row without healing; instant negative bloody.
Mid level Swordmage - wrapping up tough fight, low HP. Walks into hazard which instantly kills him (out of the party's sight at that ... they still wonder whatever happened to that guy who went into the smoke and never came out ...)
Ongoing damage can be a culprit, but I think the vast majority of our deaths are from failing too many death ticks. Healers run out of healing, second winds are used up, and getting over to stabilize the dying just isn't always possible, with monsters pushing, pulling, slowing, and immobilizing people.
In the game I run:
First PC death, the party is fighting some kobolds at a chokepoint, the rogue decides to go around behind them and flank/draw them out.
Well it works, and the rogue finds out his character cannot take three kobolds in a straight up fight with the healers line of sight blocked.
Second and third PC deaths, an encounter with Snaketongue cultists and a green dragon deep inside the sewer goes bad. They end up jumping into fast moving sewage to escape, the green dragon pursues, biting at them and knocking two PCs unconscious, one of whom is the leader, both proceed to fail their death saving throws in rapid order.
In the first case, a clear example of bad tactics. In the second case, either bad tactics or accidently overpowered encounter. I personally think they could have made it without retreating and they just panicked when the green dragon showed up.
(Of course I like my players with a little fear in them...)
First PC death, the party is fighting some kobolds at a chokepoint, the rogue decides to go around behind them and flank/draw them out.
Well it works, and the rogue finds out his character cannot take three kobolds in a straight up fight with the healers line of sight blocked.
Second and third PC deaths, an encounter with Snaketongue cultists and a green dragon deep inside the sewer goes bad. They end up jumping into fast moving sewage to escape, the green dragon pursues, biting at them and knocking two PCs unconscious, one of whom is the leader, both proceed to fail their death saving throws in rapid order.
In the first case, a clear example of bad tactics. In the second case, either bad tactics or accidently overpowered encounter. I personally think they could have made it without retreating and they just panicked when the green dragon showed up.
(Of course I like my players with a little fear in them...)
Yeah, the Needlefang Drake swarm one was rough. Uninformed, any low level PC could walk into that one and die. But, part of it is that the players should ask for various Monster checks like Dungeoneering so that they can find out some basic actions to NOT do. In the case of the swarm, they have a deadly swarm aura, so don't stand next to them both at the same time.
Another thing to do is to keep the Leaders in the middle of the group as often as possible and to NOT move more than 10 squares away from them. They need to be able to get within 5 squares for a heal power or all of the way there with the Heal skill within a round or two.
And a major part of the Leader role is to heal. I suspect that some players in campaigns where a lot of deaths occur can partially blame it on the players of the Leaders. The moment a PC goes down, a Leader and possibly another PC should be moving to heal/protect the downed PC. Instead, I suspect that some players think "No problem, I have 2+ rounds before I have to heal him" and then the Leader gets cut off from the PC or gets a condition put on him and a few bad dice rolls later, the PC is dead. And, it's not just Leaders. Any PC can try to stabilize an unconscious PC when the Leader is out of heals or busy and far away.
In fact, Leaders should often (but not always) be healing the moment certain PCs (especially squishies) get bloodied.
And it is also the responsibility of a player to have his PC take his Second Wind. I've noticed that players in my group tend to almost never do this because the heal powers are so much stronger. Yup, it's a standard action. Yup, healing powers are better. Deal with it. Not every round requires an attack roll. In fact, many rounds with an attack roll miss anyway. Heal, then attack.
In synopsis:
1) Monster checks are your friend.
2) Maintain mobility for Leaders.
3) Almost always heal or at least stabilize unconscious PCs immediately.
4) Often heal bloodied PCs immediately.
5) Use Second Wind. Saving resources can lead to death as often as saving from it.
4E is group oriented, so the group has to assist seriously damaged PCs in order for everyone to survive. That sometimes means that the Defender has to give an Opportunity Attack to the Dragon, just so that he can move to the downed Rogue and give him a healing potion.
I suspect that some PC deaths could be prevented if all of the players at the table worked harder at assisting each other and less at playing the PC that takes down the BBEG. It really is a group game and everyone in the group has to be flexible with their actions and not just "I attack again this round".
Having a hard time hitting the monster? Then do an Aid Another for the Striker. He'll probably do more damage anyway.
Party getting pounded on by many foes? Have all 5 PCs attack the same foe to decrease the number of foes. Rinse and repeat.
Death can occur even with the best PC tactics due to bad dice rolls or a mismatch of the monsters with the PCs. But, the two areas the players can focus on the most to minimize PC deaths are their tactics, and their PC builds. That extra one point of damage by the Invoker can sometimes mean the difference between a hard fight and a killing one.
the Jester
Legend
In my 4e campaign, we've had one pc that died during a massive log-crossing-the-river-WE'RE AMBUSHED!! encounter, mostly because the terrain was really hindering (moreso than I had planned, by a lot!). She died via the three failed death saves because the party's healers were too far ahead, behind and to the side of her.
We also had another pc get hanged for arson, but that was off-screen. No mechanics involved.
We also had another pc get hanged for arson, but that was off-screen. No mechanics involved.
This is a fantastic list and this is exactly how our group plays. We use the Bloodied value as the benchmark for healing from our leaders. Things can turn sour ever so quickly if you let your HPs drop much more than that. Plus, being bloodied is a state that any character is supposed to know in game so in our group instead of asking how many HPs a character has, we just ask who is bloodied and determine healing based on that. We quickly found out that if you let your HPs drop to a quarter or less without spending resources to heal, people will drop and could die. Out of the 3 deaths we had, particularly the mind flayer death of reaching for 0 HPs, the cleric was dazed, had one action and had to decide if he healed the guy with the Mind Flayer on him or do something to help himself. He decided NOT to heal that character and it wound up being that characters death. Leaders have to perform a role, and if they don't do that regularly, then someone else should be playing the leader.
As Karinsdad said, groups have to work together and that isn't necessarily best done by attacking a creature.
KarinDad, Caliber, I have a question for you - When in the area of multiple Auras from multiple creatures, do you combine the damage? Lets use Needlefang Drake swarms and Hell Hounds as two examples. This is one area where I think many groups play differently and I think is worth discussion.
And by all means, keep it coming with the death stories. I think this is great!
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